General Wesley Clark debates Karl Rove at the University of Buffalo
September 26, 2008
transcript by Reg NYC
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Well, good evening and welcome to our consideration of a red and blue state America in this important election year. I'm UB Vice President Dennis Black. Tonight's format calls for each speaker to make an opening five minute statement on their agenda for America. Following these remarks, they will each be responding to a series of questions related to key issues with each given four minutes to discuss or elaborate on this- on the issue. After the opening remarks and addressing some key issues, we'll move to questions from the audience with short answers, one minute answers. We have questions from you being collected tonight throughout the call- hall by the ushers and on the distributed cards and from some selected students who submitted questions in advance in classes and online. And those questions will be posed directly by the students. Our evening will conclude then after each presenter offers three minutes of closing observations or opinions. As a university community, we are certainly fully committed to respecting the, respecting the expression rights of all, including our invited speakers. With that in mind, we ask for your cooperation and courtesy during tonight's presentations. So, let's get started.
We welcome Mr. Karl Rove. We welcome General Wesley Clark. By agreement, General Clark will be speaking first and last this evening, and there is a system here onstage to advise our speakers of their time limits.
General Clark.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you very much, and I want to thank John Simpson and everybody here at the University of Buffalo. It's great to be with you.
(applause)
Thank you. Thank you.
(applause continues)
Well, what a great forum. You're out here. It's a great evening. It's the evening of a Presidential debate. And, and Karl and I, I do- Karl, I don't know how you feel about it, but I feel like I, we're- I don't know, it's like the Little League before the World Series or something. I, you know?
(laughter)
But thank you for being here, because there's a lot we need to talk about tonight. And I'm very honored that you asked me to come and participate in this debate with Karl Rove in this rich and historic city of Buffalo. As John mentioned, I served 38 years in uniform. I fought in Vietnam. I came home on a stretcher. I stayed in the United States Army, and I believed in public service. And I believed the country was in danger, and I believed it was the most important thing I could do with my life was to stay in uniform and help the country. It was a great experience, and I loved every minute of it except for the day I was shot in Vietnam and the day they told me I had to retire. But it was a wonderful experience, and along the way I helped train the forces that won the Gulf War. I helped plan the intervention in Haiti that restored democracy there, or at least the democratically elected President in 1994. I helped bring an end to the fighting in the Balkans and Bosnia in 1995. I became the NATO Commander in 1997 and helped implement the Dayton Peace Agreement that we had drafted. And I led Operation Allied Force, which was NATO's first major military action. We saved a million and a half Albanians from ethnic cleansing, and we did it with the support of all of NATO's 19 member nations. And we did it without a single American casualty, and we did it under a Democratic administration.
(applause)
When I got out of the military, I never believed I'd ever be in politics, and I could never have imagined that I'd be up here as a Democrat with Karl Rove on the other side. (laughter) I-it just w- never crossed my mind that we'd do that. But I'm here, and I entered politics, and I am a Democrat. Because we're a great nation with great values, great skills, a great heritage, wonderful resources, and we're a nation in trouble. We need new ideas, and we need new leadership in America.
(cheering and applause)
It's been a tough eight years. It's been eight years in which we were struck by terrorists in a terrible attack on the United States of America. No one knows if that attack could've been prevented, but we do know that the intelligence that come in wasn't reacted to properly, that warnings were given, and adequate efforts weren't made. But in the aftermath, our administration in Washington took us into a war in Afghanistan that I supported. We had to. We had to go after the terrorists. But we let Osama Bin Laden escape. We truncated the efforts in Afghanistan, and we went into a war we didn't have to fight in Iraq.
(applause)
I don't think the American people fully understand- stood that the government of the United St-States could make such a monumental mistake until they saw the incompetence of our government in dealing with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans.
(applause)
And now, we're in a slow-motion financial meltdown that's come to a sharp point of crisis. After four years of expert warnings, two years of intense warnings about the national debt, about deficit spending, about over-reliance on credit, and here we are at a crisis this weekend. Well, it's time for new ideas and new leadership in America. We cannot win our security (applause) - let me sketch these four ideas - we can't win our security with weapons alone. You've got to make more friends than enemies in the world and use force only as a last, last, last resort.
(applause)
We've got to restore the integrity of America's economy. And that means fixing the financial crisis, and it's going to take bipartisan work to do it. We're going to have to strengthen America's competitiveness in the world abroad. We're going to have to do that by things like providing healthcare to every single American,-
(applause)
-strengthening education, emphasizing science, research and development. And we're going to have to have the leadership to work with others to tackle global problems like climate change, global warming, conflict and disease.
We're going to elect a new President in 40 days, and tonight you're going to see that debate. But here with Karl Rove and with me, I hope that without any personalities and peccadilloes, we're going to be able to talk about the real ideas and that we'll help sharpen the issues, strengthen our appreciation of the facts and help shape opinions that can help all of us do a better job as citizens in the United States of America. That's our purpose tonight. And thank you for the opportunity to participate.
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Thank you, General Clark. Mr. Rove, we're going to give you five and a half minutes.
(laughter)
Karl Rove: Vice President Black, President Simpson, esteemed guests-
(applause mixed with jeers)
I want to thank you for inviting me to the University of Buffalo's 22nd Annual Distinguished Speakers Series, and I'm honored to share the stage tonight with General Wesley Clark, who served our country with such distinction.
The question before us was: What should our agenda be for America's future? I'd like to offer five suggestions: First, our agenda should be to fight and win the Global War on Terror.
(applause)
Our goal, our goal should be to seek stable democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan that can defend themselves, sustain themselves and be allies in the Global War on Terror. I think a very-
(applause)
I think a very sage former military officer testifying before the House Armed Services Committee in 2002 said it right when he said that Saddam Hussein was a clear threat, that action could not be postponed indefinitely, that the use of force must remain an active consideration, that the United States should and could act pre-emtively against him and that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. I believe General Clark was accurate when he made that testimony in 2002.
(applause)
Our goal, our goal should be to encourage the expansion of democracy across the globe to strengthen the forces of modern and moderate Islam. Our goal must be to put in place the institutions and to gather the strength of the West to commit to the challenges that will shape the 21st Century - transnational terrorism, WMD in rogue states like Iran and the threat of a resurgent Russia. And we must have strong U.S. leadership to confront hunger, disease and the denial of freedom wherever they exist, whether it's AIDS in Africa or human rights abuses in Sudan or North Korea.
Our second goal must be here at home to have a growing, dynamic, prosperous economy, and it must be based on a tax system that is simple, flat and low, and government that is restrained in its spending.
(applause)
We must have, we must have regulation that it- in which the rule are clear, fair and cost-effective. We must have a litigation system that is fair and impartial, not jackpot justice. And we must have an economy that is made more competitive, nimble and inva- innovative, with help throughout life so that workers can gain new skills for the jobs of tomorrow. And we must have obstacles to American exports knocked down all around the globe, because if the playing field is level, Americans compete anywhere, anytime.
(applause)
And the greed of the leaders of Fannie and Freddie Mac, government sponsored enterprises whose mismanagement and inordinate risk taking were the contagions that have frozen our credit markets and put our economy at risk. We better have an agenda that says those people who broke the law and those people who abused the public trust find themselves in jail.
(applause)
Third, we must seek to be a nation with abundant affordlesable (sic) supplies of energy, because by emphasizing technology and innovation we can draw from all possible sources, from nucular (sic) and clean coal and wind and solar and renewables and natural gas and battery hybrids and conservation. And by doing so we will reduce America's dependence on oil, particularly that from the Middle East.
(applause)
And the export, and the export of that technology will help developing countries become efficient as the United States of America is in the use of energy, thereby putting the world on a path to stabilize and ultimately reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
Fourth, we must reform important institutions. We need leaders willing to tack tough- tackle tough problems like saving Social Security and reforming Medicare by policies that expand choice and depend on markets and use the freedom of the individual to decide and by diminishing the power of bureaucracy and centralized control. Whether it's in healthcare where we need a patient centered healthcare system or in education where we need to raise standards, increase choice, strengthen accountabilities and give every child the tools to succeed in life, we need reform of these fundamental institutions that have served us so well.
(applause)
Fifth, our goal must to be make our families, our communities and our neighborhoods safer and stronger. Every piece of legislation and every policy must take into consideration how to fix the strength of the family. We must seek an America that honors hard work and sacrifice and values and character, and America that puts a premium on personal responsibility, particularly the responsibility to love a neighbor like you'd like to be loved yourself. We must seek an America of freedom for every single human being, an America where faith is respected, life is protected and service to nation, community and neighbor is a deeply felt duty that resides in the heart of every American.
(applause)
It is legitimate and re- even responsible and wise to think about what our future ought to be, but I want to conclude by pointing out that we ought to be grateful for what this country is right now. We are truly blessed. We face tough challenges, but we are blessed to be the citizens of this great country. We live in the freest, most prosperous country in the world. Our nation's brought freedom and life saving aid to countless people in every corner of the globe, and there is something called the American Dream, and people around this world want to share in it. And why? Because as Abraham Lincoln said, "Our nation remains the b- last, best hope of earth." So, let's talk about what America can be tonight, but let's never lose sight of the extraordinary fact that America is not only the greatest nation on the face of the planet, it is the greatest nation in the history of the world.
Thank you.
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Thank you General Clark and Mr. Rove. We have a number, number of key questions tonight that follow up on some of the themes that you've already led us into. Our format calls for four minute responses to these questions from each presenter, alternating as to who speaks first beginning with General Clark.
First question tonight follows up on th-the obvious issue of the day. We're facing a critical and complicated economic challenge as a nation and as a world. What can a President do immediately and for the longer term to improve our fiscal system and environment? Will the planned bailout work? What could it cost us to do it o-o-or not do it, and what should be learned by all of this? In the sort of words of the day, what should we learn for Wall Street and for Main Street?
We begin with General Clark.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, first of all, I do think that the U-United States needs a bailout for the financial institutions. We've got wonderful financial institutions in this country, and they've propelled us to some incredible heights of prosperity. But we've overextended our reliance on credit, and we got ourselves into a position where we don't- even the experts really don't understand the financial risks that are out there. So, that's all come to a sharp point this week. I was New York talking to a lot of financiers this week and gaining their perspective. But I think here's what we need to do in the simplest terms:
Number one, we need to enable the financial institutions to freeze the decline in the value of the balance sheets for all of these securitized mortgage obligations. In other words, those obligations should be frozen in value just where they are, ship them off to the resolution trust-type organization that we're talking about creating, and let them sort out exactly what's in each one, how they're connected, what the real value is and work it. The institutions then can go ahead and without making any money on the federal bailout - it just holds everything and freezes it - and they go ahead about their work in their other areas.
The second thing though you have to do is you have to get to the bottom of this and the bottom of this is the homeowner. There are a lot of people in this country who perhaps according to some on Wall Street should never've been allowed to own a home, but they own a home now. They're in those homes. I believe we have to make sure that as we're helping the financial institutions, we help American families in their homes. How do we do it? What's the right idea? I think the right idea, one right idea is to simply freeze raising the adjustable rate mortgage interest rates. Just freeze it-
(applause)
-right now, five year moratorium. If you're in there, you're in there. Then, let it be worked out over a period of time. But we've got about a trillion dollars worth of Alt-A loans that are coming up in the next six months with escalating interest rates, and we've got hundreds of thousands of vulnerable families when those rates escalate. So, we have to take care of the families.
And I think that of you bring your financial institution to the federal government and ask for help, I think you owe it to the American people to respect the kind of rewards that we give our top leaders. I don't think anybody who brings his institution in and asks for help from the government should making more than the President of the United States does. So, I'd like to see some caps on executive compensation.
(applause)
If we do this, that's the start. This is a two or three year workout process to get our financial system in order. It doesn't deal with any of the fundamental issues in the American economy. We still need a real energy policy. We need to get off spending 500 billion dollars a year importing oil from other nations. We can make that energy at home through a greater reliance on renewables and create jobs at the same time. We still need to fix the educational system. We still need to fix the healthcare system in America. But it starts with restoring the integrity of the American financial system. We need to do it. We need to learn from it and set up the regulatory system so these kinds of mistakes aren't repeated.
A lot of people've come to me and they said, 'Won't we lose our influence,' or 'Haven't we lost our influence in the world because of this financial crisis?' I don't believe that. I think the measure of America is: Can we recognize a crisis and move forward and seize it and fix it? I think we as Americans working together can do that in this crisis.
(applause)
Karl Rove: First of all, let's be clear about what we need to do. We don't need to bail out companies. What we need to do-
(applause)
What we need to do is have the patience and power of the government used to purchase these mortgage-backed securities that are today illiquid and whose presence on the balance sheets of banks and companies is causing our credit system to lock up. What the government ought to do is buy them, but not for 100 cents on the dollar. It ought to buy whatever these companies and banks are willing to sell for a fraction of their worth and then hold them - because there are 90, about 97 percent of them are backed by somebody who's paying a mortgage on time - and hold them until the government makes a profit on them. But in the meantime, liquify the credit markets.
(applause)
But of you have a company like Lehman which has made bad decisions over the years, not just buying these exotic pieces of paper created by Fannie and Freddie, but has made other bad decisions that have made it weak, we are under no obligation to save them. The obligation is to the American taxpayer (smattering of applause) and to the American economy. Our obligation is also to the taxpayers and the homeowners. Now we do have three percent, just under three percent of American homeowners who today are at risk of foreclosure, and we ought to wherever possible work with them to get th-them into a mortgage that can meet their, their paycheck. And of they can't, if they bought too big a house or they bought a house that their paycheck won't support, we the 97 percent of people who are paying our mortgages in time are under no obligation to give them a house they couldn't afford in the first place.
(applause)
We must not however, we must not however freeze adjustable rate mortgages, because guess what? A five year plan that says you've con- made a contract, you went into it supposedly with your eyes open, and you can't rework it with your lender and we're going to therefy (?) freeze it for five years. That means higher interest rates for anybody who wants to buy a house in the future, and we shouldn't make the mistakes of the three percent be paid for by everybody who wants to buy a home in the future.
(applause)
And let us recognize, and let us recognize where this came from. This came from Fannie and Freddie Mac. They spent 170 million dollars on lobby expenses in the last ten years. They were chartered by the United States Congress. Bill Clinton, when he was President, tried to reign them in and was turned back. We tried to reign them in under Bush and got turned back by i- interestingly enough, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. These were institutions that use your power as a taxpayer to go into the marketplace and borrow money cheaper than their private competitors 'cause y- th- everybody in the marketplace thought they were so big and they were chartered by the Congress that if they got into difficulty, the taxpayer would bail them out.
I remember in 2001 when the regulator came in and said, "I don't have to power to get these people to do the right thing," James Lockhart of OFHEO. He said, "I don't have the right under the law to make them have the same bank capital ratios that banks have. Rather than having one dollar in deposits and ten dollars in loans, these people've got a dollar in money, and they got 30 bucks in investments and some of them damn risky," he said. "I don't have the ability to look at their books and make certain that they're doing the right thing," and he said, "It smells to me like they're cooking the books." And one year later they popped up and guess what they said? "Oh, we made a tiny little error. We were only off last year on stating our losses and our income and our, and our expenditures by 10.6 billion dollars." And for that, the head of it, Franklin Raines, got a rewarded with 90 million dollars for three years in which he couldn't even state what his P&L statement was.
We make a mistake when the taxpayer sets up an entity like that with inadequate regulation and under Democrat and Republican we tried to make a change, and they didn't. They were that powerful, because they hired every lobbyist they could. Let's not make that mistake again.
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Th-thank you both. Another follow-up on a key issue: We remain in Iraq an Afghanistan. We face serious challenges there, and those challenges continue. Our military remains at risk every day, and we're spending billions of dollars. I-I guess the question that we would ask would be: Now what is it that we do as a nation, given that set of circumstances that we find ourselves in, and what, what lessons can we learn from the last seven years? And we begin with Mr. Rove.
Karl Rove: First of all, what we can do is win, because it is in our vital interest to do so.
(applause)
During the decade in the '90s we were attacked. The World Trade Center was hit in 1993. The Khobar Towers were bombed. Our two embassies in East Africa were hit ten years ago t- this year. USS Cole was (mic noise), was attacked literally in October of 2000. And yet we didn't realize that we were at war until the clear September morning when planes were slammed into buildings and a green field in Southwest Pennsylvania. Our object must be, in this opening struggle that will shape this young century, our goal must be nothing short of complete victory in the war on terror.
(applause)
Now part of that is military, part is that is military, and we need to be adept and nimble to modify our strategy when the strategy'sn't working. The strategy was working in '05, 4 and '05. It wasn't working in '06, and we made a change. And that strategy, which many experts said would not work, many experts said would not solve the problem, is working. And we need to finish the job in Iraq, and we need to add additional forces into I- into A-Afghanistan, not only U.S. forces but the forces of our NATO partners as well.
We also need to work however on the diplomatic front to encourage the growth and expansion of democracy throughout the Islamic world. We must aid the small 'd' democrats and the moderates in the world of Islam to gain the upper hand. And we must demonstrate, demonstrate the care and compassion of the United States that we support their efforts.
Now, I know this is a contentious issue. People've changed their minds about it. Wesley Clark was in favor of action in 2002 and against it in 2005. He was in favor of adding additional troops in 2005 and opposed to adding troops in 2007. And we can debate all of that all day long, but the fact of the matter is, is that when we went into this there was a consensus.
When the President of the United States said "The mission to attack Iraq's nucular (sic), chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors, Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with ne- nucular (sic) arms, poison gas or biological weapons," the President was accurate. When the Vice President said, "We know that Saddam has stored nucular (sic) supplies- s- secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proved impossible deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power," the Vice President was accurate. When a Senator in the President's party said, "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He's a brutal murderous dictator le-leading an oppressive regime," he was accurate. When that same Senator said, "I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in, in Saddam Hussein's hands is a real and grave threat to our n- security," he was accurate. When the Speaker of the House said, "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process," the Speaker was accurate. And when the National Security Advisor said, "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction," he was correct.
(applause and jeers)
Well, you may, you may call the authors of these statement liars, but the people I've quoted are Senator Bill Clinton, Senator Hillary Clinton, Vice President Al Gore, Senator John Kerry, Senator Ted Kennedy and Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
(applause)
Let us end the politics and focus on what is right for America.
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: General Clark.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Kar-Karl, I-I I'm, I'm a little bit concerned. I listened to your list of these issues (applause) in your first opening statement, and I honestly, I-I liked a lot of the ways you formulated, but it had very little bearing to what eight years of the Bush administration represented.
(applause and cheering)
I hear you dumping on these federal agencies and saying you couldn't regulate them in the economy. And yet, who was in the White House? Who had control of Congress for most of the last eight years?
(cheering and applause)
Which party was it that was the party that didn't want to believe in regulation?
(applause)
Which party was it that said, 'Let the market handle everything'? So, now you're down on Lehman Brothers. Fine, that's fine, but what you've said is not consistent with the overall philosophies that you're, that, that have been expressed by the actions of the last eight years.
Now, let's take the case of Iraq in specific terms. I'm, I'm flattered you went back and quoted me. I'm sorry you didn't quote my whole testimony, because (applause) I gave that testimony in the House and the Senate. And what I said was, "Time is on our side." I said it strongly enough that Ted Kennedy quoted me. I said it strongly enough that Richard Perle came after me. I said it strongly enough that there was no doubt to anybody in that hearing that I believed that we had time to work diplomacy and didn't have to rush into Iraq.
(applause and cheering)
You, on the other hand, and your administration went to the United States Congress and asked for an Iraq War Resolution that would've given the President the authority not only to invade Iraq but to take any other action in the REGION.
I was on the panel there, and the Senator John Warner asked me, "What do you do you think about this regulation or about this proposed, proposed language here?" And I said, "Senator, you can't do this throughout the region. This is an open invitation to endless warfare."
No, I know what was going on in the Pentagon. I saw the memos, or I was told about them, Karl. And you must've seen them too. It was a walk through the park - knock off Iraq, go to Syria, take care of Lebanon, seven countries in five years. And this idea that by imposing democracy, you can somehow eliminate the terrorist threat? Come on. That doesn't work.
(applause)
So, number one, we start pulling our troops out of Iraq. They've done a great job there. I'm very proud of General Petraeus and General Odierno and their work. Now let's start them coming home.
(applause and cheering)
Nothing is going to give the Iraqis a greater incentive to get together and end their quarrels than the departure of American troops.
In Afghanistan, we need a new strategy. This idea that- Look, I was in uniform for 38 years, and I know what military forces can do and what they can't. You win in Afghanistan by giving people in Afghanistan economic hope, not by killing Taliban.
(applause)
We need a new strategy, and we need some straight talk in the last hundred days of this administration and some straight talk from the administration's spokesmen.
(applause)
Karl Rove: (fading in) What I'd like to suggest is, we've had a pretty spirited exchange here, how about if we extend this four minutes each on each side. We'll eight minutes longer so everybody gets questions, but let's explore this in depth. Because I don't know whether he meant them as rhetorical questions, but the General did ask me a number of questions, and I'd like to respond to them.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: General Clark?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Fine with me.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Gentlemen, we will reset the clock-
(applause)
-on our issue of the greatest im-
Karl Rove: (interrupting) I don't, I don't even- I-I don't even need- Why don't you do it at two minutes? Let's, let's- we don't need-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: (chuckles)
(audience grumbles)
Karl Rove: Let's do two. Because this wo- this won't take-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Well, this will go on for two and then we may, may end up resetting it again but-
Karl Rove: This, this, this won't take long.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Fair enough. Round two, Mr Rove.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what was said about Iraq, as I recall also.
(uproarious applause)
Karl Rove: Good one.
(applause continues)
General Clark made four points. He first said that th- he implied the administration was opposed to regulation. I would remind you, General Clark, that in 2005, the administration proposed regulation of Fannie and Freddie after raising it in the budget in 2004. And I would also remind you that the two people who opposed it and stopped it from passage were Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, who also opposed a similar attempt by President Clinton to, in '97 and '98, regulate Fannie and Freddie Mae. So, we were in favor of it. Democrats such as your close friend Chris Dodd were opposed.
Second of all, you had a lot just to say about the Iraq War Resolution. I remember when you ran for President, you were asked, 'Would you have voted for the resolution?' And you said you would've. So, if it was so bad then today, why was it you were willing to vote for it when you started running for President?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You're right, this won't take two minutes.
(applause)
Karl Rove: Third- Let me finish. Let me finish. The suggestion that if we impose democracy - I don't en- say 'impose democracy', but I say 'encourage democracy'. And the idea that a democracy would n- that encouraging democracy would not reduce the threat of terrorism, democracies do not attack their neighbors. Do not- democracies do not harbor, train and encourage terrorists. The democracies are the object of terrorists.
(light applause)
And I appreciate your suggestion about a new strategy in Iraq. After all, when a new strategy was being adopted in Iraq, you went out and said that it would not work. And I'd be happy to quote you at length as I have it here. I do read what you say. It matters what you say. You said it wouldn't work, that it wouldn't end the civil conflict, that there'd be more American deaths, more civilian deaths, and it would not succeed. And it did. You also accused our military commanders of, quote, "violating every principle of just war, war doctrine." You accused our, you said our leaders, both civilian and military, ought to be subjected to investigations and if need be war crimes tribunals.
(applause)
With all due respect, Sir, that is a slander on the people that you served in uniform with, like General Petraeus.
(applause and jeers)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: First of all, I think it's your administration's philosophy from the beginning to reduce regulations. So, citing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as an example on the contrary side doesn't change the fact that you've got an administration which is basically been hostile to market regulation. I mean, this is what the new Secretary of the Treasury proposed when he first came into office, was a- sent a long bill up to the Congress saying, 'Here's the plan for further deregulating the American economy.
Secondly, on democratization and the surge, seems to me that if you look at where the terrorists are today, a lot of them come from either Pakistan or Britain or other European countries and go to Pakistan. Now there's, while democracies may not attack each other, there are a lot of people in most democracies who don't agree with everybody. So, having a democracy is no, is no insurance that there's no terrorist threat. In fact-
(applause)
-by pressing very hard to create democracies in the region, you may be undercutting some American friends who can support us and help us succeed in the war on terror. That's why your administration failed to enforce its principles of democracy in Egypt against President Mubarak.
(applause)
As far as the surge is concerned, what I said in the surge was that when you put more troops in, you will get military results, but the basic problems are political. And what's made it look different - and I'm going to need a slight tight time extension - what's made it look a little bit different is that the Iranians decided that they'd had enough violence, the Saudis encouraged the Sunni tribes to stop fighting each other and the Americans and get ready to fight the Iranians and the Shia. Those issues aren't resolved. The situation in Iraq is very fragile.
And as far as war crimes trials are concerned, I was investigated by the international criminal tribunal on Yugoslavia for my role in leading NATO in that action. I didn't see anything wrong with that, and they didn't find anything that we'd done wrong. I had a lawyer at my side the whole time. But there's a whole series of articles that is coming out day by day in the Washington Post this week that people in high levels in the administration were briefed on the so-called 'harsh tactics' of interrogation, tactics that we took from our experience with China and North Korea in the Korean War that we trained our airmen to survive. And then, somehow this administration adopted those tactics to use to interrogate captured terrorists. It was not only inappropriate, it was a violation of international law that we had signed up to, and our military lawyers tried to tell you that.
(enthusiastic applause)
And they were not listened to.
(applause continues)
Listen, the United States Armed Forces that I served in and I'm proud of doesn't torture people!
(applause begins)
We win our nations wars in accordance with international law, not in spite of it and not against it!
(applause continues)
And I have respect for the men and women who served and most of them would do nothing less than obey international law. If they did cross the line, it's because they were instructed to do so, AND WE SHOULD HOLD ACCOUNTABLE THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO'VE TAKEN THIS COUNTRY ON SUCH A PERILOUS AND ILLEGAL COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S MADE US LESS SECURE!
(applause)
Karl Rove: You know-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: M-Mr. Rove, you've, you've got-
Karl Rove: Thank you.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: -two minutes to finish this round, please.
Karl Rove: Thank you. Let me read what General Clark said, "We have a detainment facility in Guantanamo. We're apparently continuing the mistreatment and inhumane handling of datee- detainees using some of the very techniques we've condemned when others have used them as torture." The International Red Cross goes to Guantanamo. We have civilian observers at Guantanamo. We have civilian lawyers and military lawyers representing the defendants. And none of them have been able to say with the clarity and the conviction that General Wesley Clark says that we are using inhumane and mistreatment that is worthy of the name 'torture'.
(jeers)
We are keeping America safe as we have kept America safe for seven years.
(applause and jeers)
Now, you can't have it both ways. You can't have it both ways. You cannot say that America's military does not use torture - which I agree with, I wholeheartedly agree with you - and on the other hand say they are conducting torture against our enemies. Well, you just simply can't do it.
There is a reason why America has not been hit again for seven years. It is because we squeezed every bit of intelligence that we can from from our enemies and we've used every intelligence technique at our, at our, at, at our hand in order to find the intelligence before they hit us again. And I will make no apologies whatsoever for that at all.
(applause and jeers)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I just have to have a few more seconds.
Karl Rove: Wait a sec- I-I gave, I gave you two and a half minutes more.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know. I know.
Karl Rove: I mean, I gave you, you know, come on.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know. You've been generous with your time, and I've been too verbose. But I would say this, I would say this, that the experts tried to tell the administration that these techniques, these harsh interrogation techniques, they weren't for interrogation. If you want to interrogate someone, you've got to sort of get inside their mind and get them to cooperate with you. The FBI tried to say it. The people that ran the SEER School tried to say it. A lot of people who'd had experience tried to say it - our own FBI. Instead, when the Red Cross went to Guantanamo, apparently there was a coverup. That's what I've read from the Red Cross people. Oh yeah, they weren't allowed into all of the detention cells. They didn't see everything. At least, that's what I've been told.
Now, you never invited me to go to Guantanamo. (laughter) If you had, maybe I'd be able to have a different opinion. But I've read the books. I've read the articles. I've talked to people. And I'm very concerned that this administration has taken us on a course that puts us at odds with international law, and ladies and gentlemen, international law, that's us! (applause) We build the United Nations. That UN Declaration of Human Rights, that was in our image of our Bill of Rights. It doesn't do any good to stand for democratization around the world if you violate the very rights that you're preaching. You can't win the war on terror.
(applause and cheering)
Karl Rove: Well, with all due respect, General Clark, with all due respect, the interrogation was done by experts from the FBI and the CIA, and they did get useful, actionable intelligence which has kept America free. And I love this, General Clark, with all due respect, Sir. You hear gossip from somebody unnamed parties with the Red Cross that lead you to believe that you can slander the U.S. military that's at Guantanamo so easily. (crowd ruckus) Why don't you, if you believe it, why don't you ask to go down to Guantanamo and see if what the gossip you heard is worthy of being used as libel and slander on our American military and our intelligence agencies.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: First of all, I reject-
Karl Rove: With all due respect, Sir.
(applause)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I reject your word of slander, sir.
Karl Rove: Well, y-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's not the right word.
Karl Rove: You're wel- Is it libel?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's not the right word.
Karl Rove: Libel? Slander? Which one is it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And it's not libel. It is a fear that your administration, and excuse me, but I did read - I wasn't in the Republican Party meeting in Las Vegas, I think it was January of 2002 where you explained to the Republican Party operatives your plan to keep this administration in office for eight years. You said, "We'll run George Bush as a war President."
Karl Rove: No I didn't.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what the quote is.
Karl Rove: No, I didn't. I said-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I wasn't there.
Karl Rove: (inaudible)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Gentlemen, gentlemen.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what the quote is.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Gentlemen.
Karl Rove: I'd be happy to tell you-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Gentlemen!
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And so-
Karl Rove: -what I said in Austin, Texas-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And so-
Karl Rove: -in January of 2002.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let me tell you-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Here, here.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm concerned-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: G-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that somehow-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: On behalf of both of you-
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: O-on be- th-this is an important issue, a-and on behalf all- both of you and our audience, we certainly want to extend the exchange, but we would like the exchange to be a complete thought and a complete thought. (laughter) So, I'm going to go back over here, and here's what we're going to do.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: We're going to give you each one more minute on this particular topic. This will be an issue that will continue to come up tonight, will continue to come up in the national debate. But let's see if we can focus one more minute on this key issue from both of our presenters, and then we'll move on to a domestic issue. I interrupted General Clark. Please.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't think there was any strong logic that compels a rush to war with Iraq, and I know that Rumsfeld on 9/11 sent a note to the White House asking, 'Is this what we need to go to war?' I know from my friends in the military, I'm sorry, I know from my friends in the military that the decisions were made to prepare the invasion of Iraq before we even finished the operation in Afghanistan. And so, I have real concerns about the motives and the way in which the military (applause) was used by this administration for its purposes.
The military is not a partisan organization. It serves with honor whoever is the Commander in Chief. That's what they did during Bill Clinton's time. That's what they're doing during George Bush's time. And I honor them for their service, but woe be to the civilian politicians and the administrators who take the men and women in uniform and their sacrifices and use them for political purposes. And sir-
(applause)
-some of the men in your administration had some very strange interpretations of international law and American obligations, and those were pushed down on the armed forces despite the objections of our military lawyers. And that's wrong.
(applause)
UB Vice President Dennis Black: Mr. Rove, the, the last minute and a half on this key issue.
Karl Rove: First of all, the rush to war: For 10 years, the United Nations passed 16 resolutions asking Saddam Hussein to live up to the agreements that he made in the aftermath of the first Gulf War. That is not a rush to war. The Congress voted a resolution on October of 2002 authorizing the use of force. The President went to the United Nations, not for one, but for two resolutions. And when Saddam Hussein refused to confirm and to refuse to conform to either the UN resolutions or the demands of the United States and out al- and our allies, then what did we do? In March of 2003, we went in. But to suggest that there is some kind of rush of war when over ten years, this man spent his time thumbing his nose at the world community and telling the UN to get lost and ignored its resolutions. And when he spent five months telling the United States he was not going to - in fact, more than nine, five months - about nine months spent time telling the United States that he would not conform to our requirements and our demands in the aftermath of 9/11, we had time- he had time, he refused to use the time wisely, and we removed him from power. And it was right to do so, and as you said, you would've voted for the war resolution when you ran for President.
(applause)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No I a-ctually-
Karl Rove: Now- well, please, let me finish. Let me finish.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I got to correct this statement.
Karl Rove: Let me finish.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Okay.
Karl Rove: Now, I love this point that you made earlier about the military lawyers being ignored and our military leaders being ignored. You know, I sat in some of those meetings, not all of them, and I frankly think again, General Clark, with all due respect, your intelligence is flawed. Because (laughter) this President listened to the military leaders, and there were not the members of the Joint Chiefs walking in saying, 'Mr. President, we're going to do something that's illegal,' which was the implication of what you said - simply didn't happen, Sir.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: W-we invited everyone tonight for a debate.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Can I just-
UB Vice President Dennis Black: We, we have one.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-I've got to have one second.
UB Vice President Dennis Black: General Clark, certainly.
(laughter)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What I actually said was that there were a number of resolutions and, and I was asked on the first day of my campaign would I have supported it. And I never actually finished the answer. And so, I said, "Probably, if-" I would've supported the Levin Rev- Resolution, which would have brought, given the President - and I testified in front of Congress that we needed a resolution to give the President - to go to New York with the power of the American people behind him to push for a diplomatic settlement by Iraq. But I didn't support a blank check for George Bush. I didn't, I wouldn't, I don't and I won't.
(applause)
Karl Rove: All, all I know is that when you were asked the question you said you probably would've voted for the resolution. I don't know what you didn't say. All I know is what you did say. I also know that you supported proudly and enthusiastically a woman who also voted for the war resolution, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton.
(applause)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm very proud to support Hillary Clinton.
Transcript to be continued.....7576kgo