August 13, 2008
transcript by Reg NYC
Neil Cavuto: He is sending his Secretary of State Condolezza Rice to Georgia to show his support. Reaction now from someone many say could be the next Se-Sec-Secretary of State in an Obama administration, former Democratic Presidential candidate, former Supreme Commander of NATO, General Wesley Clark. General, what do you think of this?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think it's a very dangerous situation. I think Russia has clearly taken advantage and is pursuing strategic objectives. I don't think we've seen the end of this yet. I think what we need to do right away in addition to the humanitarian airlift that's going in is that we should get some observers in on the ground. They don't have to be Americans. It's better if they're from the European Union. Let President Sarkozy put in a few teams and tell us the ground truth of what's going on there so that we can use diplomatic leverage to force the Russians, the Russian military to abide by the directions given by its political leaders. What's being done right now is a, it's a game. The Russians played this game before. We saw it, I saw it personally. They played it against NATO in Kosova. They say at the political level, 'We'll stop,' but at the military level they don't stop. And without ground truth it's difficult to go back and confront the political leadership and say, 'You guys are lying to us! You tell them to stop and we mean it or else.' And so, the first step is to get some neutral observers in there.
Neil Cavuto: Alright, General. Just to remind people at home here, in the lower right portion of your screen, that is a scene in Michigan. John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee is going to be talking to reporters about this. Of course, he has been very strong in his condemnation of the Russians r-really from the get-go when this first came out, which brings us to a point with you, General, as to whether Barack Obama was overly cautious. What do you make of that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think he's been very strong and very forthright in his statement. He's called on the Russians to stop. He c-certainly would agree with the humanitarian airlift in there. He's called for a deepening of the U.S. relationship with Georgia, the continuation of the membership action plan for NATO and so forth. But we should, we should be very clear with our viewers, the key to success here is to have unity between the United States and all of our European allies. This is not something the United States can handle alone. We're not going to dispatch a brigade of the 82nd airborne in there. This has got to be done with a concerted diplomatic leverage against the Soviets to force those troops back. And then, whatever reassurances we can give to the Georgians, we should certainly do that as well. But we should be really working NATO and NATO unity in here, and I'm waiting to see a statement from either the European Union or NATO that shows the appropriate degree of resolve and, and, and determination to call on the Russians to pull back immediately.
Neil Cavuto: General, I didn't see that-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They have no business in Georgia.
Neil Cavuto: I understand, Sir, but I didn't see that kind of resolve in, in, in Barack Obama's initial responses to this. It was cautious. It was very diplomatic, but it didn't seem to have the, the, the sense of magnitude that John McCain's did very early on saying the Russians and, and, and their bulldoggedness were, were a problem. It was a view that eventually the rest of the world came to share including the President of the United States and eventually Senator Obama himself. But do you think that on this first key foreign policy test as a candidate for President, Obama botched it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think Senator Obama's done, doing just fine on this. I don't think there's any issue. I think you have to, you have to watch carefully what you're saying at this point. There's- th-th-the very harsh anti-Russian rhetoric makes good domestic politics, but it doesn't bring European unity into action. And what we've got to have is European unity. We've got to bring France, Germany, UK, Poland, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, all of these countries have got to come together with the countries newly admitted to NATO in Eastern Europe and say to the Russians, 'Stop! Stop now, and get your forces out and keep them out!'
Neil Cavuto: Well what do you think, General-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (inaudible) United States.
Neil Cavuto: What do you think, General when, when John McCain says he doesn't think Russia should be a member or even- o-of NATO or talking to NATO, or talking to the G8 I should say more specifically, that he just thinks that we've gone too far accommodating Russia and have essentially created the beast that we have. What do you make of that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, I've been concerned for a long time about how we deal with Russia. In, at the beginning, in the 1990's we were very concerned about Russia's feelings, and as you know President George H. Bush and Brent Scowcroft, in one of the things that emerged from their administration was they didn't want to be triumphalist in our success in the Cold War. We let the Russians quietly leave Eastern Europe. We didn't hold big victory parades and force them out, but the Russians took it in a very personal way anyway. And I had many dealings with the Russians during the 1990's and they were very sore about losing control and their grip and their arms markets and their satellite nations in Eastern Europe. So, we knew this was going to be a problem. Putin in particular was a problem. I think he was the KGB Chief when I was the NATO Commander and we had the problem with the Russians trying to seize the airport in Kosova. They were tricky. The were sly there. They worked a split between and, and played on the, the fault lines within NATO, and, and they almost got away with it. But we had courageous allies in Hungary, Bulgaria and, and Romania which blocked Russian airlift reinforcements into that airfield at Pristina in 1999. And, and other than that NATO could've lost even then. So, it's always been difficult with Russia, but I think that somehow you have to work both a tough hand and, and engagement, constructive engagement. There's no good isolating Russia. There's no good saying we're not talking to you. There's 140 million people there. There's a lot of wealth. There's a nation that could emerge and be a constructive force in world affairs, and somehow we've got to both restrain their worst impulses and help-
Neil Cavuto: But, but that's the battle-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -a better Russia emerge.
Neil Cavuto: That's the battle right, General, and the rap against Barack Obama and maybe unfairly - perception is everything just as you said - but, but that Obama wants to trust them, but it seems like John McCain knows them. And that is the difference. What do you make of that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I didn't, I didn't see that. I didn't, I didn't see that difference. I'll be, I'll be honest with you, but, but I don't want to talk domestic politics here. I don't think that's the issue. I think the real issue here is-
Neil Cavuto: Well, one of these guys-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -how does the United States (inaudible)
Neil Cavuto: One of these guys in going to be dealing with, with, with the Russian, right? I mean-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right now we do, right now we do have a President. It's not either one of these two men, and this President, first of all, has not been as strong as I would like him to have been initially when it first happened. Secondly, we still haven't used U.S. leadership with the Europeans. I think it's fine that President Sarkozy went over there. I hope somebody's congratulating President Sarkozy. Now, let's get the rest of NATO involved and let's have our people strongly object to the Russian presence and then let's demand some neutral observers be put in there on the ground that can tell us accurately and irrefutably where the Russian forces are and where they're going. It's a wonderful thing to have the news media in there, but the news media are not capable of really tracking these Russian forces and speaking authoritatively to, to the diplomats. So, we need a neutral observer mission on the ground as soon as possible in Georgia.
Neil Cavuto: Alright. So, I just want to be clear though, General, you're saying you were disappointed that the President's response wasn't strong enough in the beginning, but you're not disappointed that Barack Obama's response wasn't strong enough in the beginning.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, neither Barack Obama or John-
(cuts to John McCain's speech)