July 22, 2008
Transcription by Melange
Dan Abrams: Joining me now, retired general and MSNBC analyst, Wesley Clark; former judge and author Catherine Crier; and Tara Wall, deputy editorial page editor for the Washington Times. Alright, General Clark, let me start with you. What do you make of these critiques coming from McCain camp?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think he has to put up a fight. That's what politics is about. He's not getting the press…um, he is seeing his rival over there looking very much like a viable Commander in Chief. So naturally they're going to try to snipe at him.
Dan Abrams: Tara, what do you make of the criticism uh, with regard to General Petraeus? I mean, is this…is this real, that the McCain camp is going to suggest that he's being disrespectful to General Petraeus because he's saying he won't necessarily do everything that Petraeus would say that he should?
Tara Wall: Well I think it leaves questions in the minds of voters and Americans. I think it's great that Barack Obama went over there. He took McCain's advice. I think it's great he acknowledged that security had improved but he is obstinate to admit that the surge is working – a surge that he has fought against from the very beginning, a surge that was supported and pushed forward by General Petraeus. So on one hand you know, you give it to him, he is…he would be, potentially could be Commander in Chief – that's the Commander in Chief's job as President Bush said, “I'm the decider.” He is the ‘decider' but he decided, Obama did, a long time ago that he opposed the surge; he opposed senator…General Petraeus and so he's trying to essentially flip-flop here but there's no mistake about it. He doesn't believe the surge is working. He never has, and I think that's the dichotomy here.
Dan Abrams: I don't think that's what he said, Catherine.
Catherine Crier: That's not what he said. He said it's a more nuanced argument which is harder for us to wrap our arms around. He said the Sunnis made a decision to fight the insurgency and to fight al Qaeda; Sadr's army stood down; there were
Dan Abrams: There were other factors
Catherine Crier: There were multiple factors and we couldn't solely credit the surge. He did go back and say ‘look, I proposed a plan some time ago and we will not know if my plan would have worked in lieu of the surge and would have worked better because we can't go back in time', but I think his argument was much more nuanced than simply saying the surge didn't work.
Dan Abrams: Let me
Tara Wall: But
Dan Abrams: Go ahead
Tara Wall: But he won't admit that it has had an impact and it is working, aside from all those other nuances…yes, you do take into consideration. Just to say ‘yes, the surge is working, General Petraeus was right' has yet to come out of his mouth.
Dan Abrams: That's true. I mean, that's true, is it not, General?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Violence is down. Everybody knew…all of us in the military knew that if you put more troops in with competent commanders, you should be able to compact the violence and drive it out. We knew that the violence would leave Baghdad and go out to the provinces. That's what it did. But the people who advocated the surge did it in a very simplistic fashion. They set the goalposts at six months, so first it was going to be ‘oh, don't worry about it, it'll be done by June of 2007,' then it turned out ‘no, no, no, it doesn't start until June of 2007.' It's been a full year since that time and we still don't have the kind of political compromises that were promised with the improvement in security.
Dan Abrams: Alright, let me play the actual sound. Here's the McCain advisor um, bashing Obama for supposedly disparaging Petraeus.
<clip>
Randy Scheunemann: This is really an amazing statement. He believes that deferring to commanders on the ground is not the job of Commander in Chief. He believes that deferring to the best military judgment of commanders is rubber stamping. He refuses to credit General Petraeus and General Odierno for their leadership. He disparages their strategic judgment and trumpets his own.
<End Clip>
Dan Abrams: Tara, you'd agree that's a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you?
Tara Wall: I would say that is a bit of a stretch. That's obviously rhetoric, of course, and I wouldn't go that far. Absolutely not, but again I mean, I think the point that's trying to be made here in a political uh type setting, and to make headlines if you will, because again Barack Obama is sucking the air out of the McCain coverage.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Can I just underscore something here, Dan? Look, as the Commander in Chief, he does not have to take the advice of the Commander on the ground.
Dan Abrams: As a General, you don't necessarily say ‘you have to listen to me?'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No. You don't rule Washington. I mean, what Barack Obama's saying is he appreciates General Petraeus's judgment but he's got concerns that go beyond Iraq. He's mentioned Afghanistan. He's got the health of the United States Armed Forces. He's got other contingencies. He's got the War on Terror. So, Petraeus is in charge of, right now, one theater of this conflict and what Barack Obama is saying is ‘I see it, I understand your concerns about risks, it's my job to evaluate the trade-offs of the risks and this is the way I see it.'
Dan Abrams: Let me play you
Tara Wall: If I can just ask. Real quick, General Clark, given you know…obviously respect for the fact that you are a general, but if you're saying to the Commander in Chief, ‘here is a strategy I believe that works, we need to try this, we should give it a shot, give it time, let's see if it works,' I would think that you would hope that that Commander in Chief would take that seriously into consid…not just into consideration but give it an opportunity, whether it's a surge strategy or any other strategy you might be anticipating.
Dan Abrams: That's the distinction, because Barack Obama has said he would take it into consideration and it sounds like what Tara is saying is, shouldn't he at least say ‘yes?'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And the answer is no – he's not obligated to say that. That's not the obligation
Dan Abrams: You say ‘give it a shot,' I mean, how long more do you have to give it a shot?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The President of the United States does not…is not subordinate to the Commander in Chief in the theater of conflict. He just isn't.
Dan Abrams: I'm going to let Catherine get in here, Tara.
Catherine Crier: Not only that, you've got the other considerations that Obama pointed out and that is he's got to balance things like, where are the troops that are going to provide the surge in Afghanistan, what about the problem on the Pakistani border. We know where the real insurgent difficulties and the al Qaeda difficulties are. He's got to balance that and Petraeus does not.
Dan Abrams: Tara, I want to ask you
Tara Wall: We know
Dan Abrams: I want to ask you about this from Representative Heather Wilson. Here she is, she's a surrogate for McCain and here's what she said.
<Clip>
Rep. Heather Wilson: We need to be successful, irrespective of the calendar and he'd like troops to come home earlier than 16 months, if the conditions allow it.
<End Clip>
Dan Abrams: Is this the new strategy from McCain, to basically say ‘we want troops to come back sooner than Barack Obama?'
Tara Wall: Well I certainly think you know, the politics of the day are…are, you're starting to see the convergence of uh, these timelines and timeframes and time horizons come together but you know, in all fairness, Senator McCain you know, in his speech about you know, seeing himself as president, he mentioned he anticipates troops being out by 2010, 2013. He has said that, of course, drawdowns being a bit more significant…so you know, he hasn't obviously given a strict hard timeline and I think that's what Republicans are arguing against, but certainly you are seeing this convergence between the administration and the McCain campaign and Obama.
Dan Abrams: But I think saying that ‘we would hope' is sort of like saying you know, ‘we hope that everything goes beautifully.' Everyone hopes that but that's not really what the question is, I don't think, his hopes and desires, it's practical reality. But anyway, everyone's going to stay with us. Coming up, many on the right going after the press for treating Obama with kid gloves and ignoring McCain. Be careful what you wish for. Up next we take a look at some of McCain's latest flubs which have been largely ignored by the media.
<snip>
Dan Abrams: So McCain challenges Obama to go abroad and now McCain and some of his lackeys are upset that the media is covering the trip. Back with us, General Wesley Clark, Judge Catherine Crier and Tara Wall from the Washington Times. I mean Tara, you have to concede don't you, that no matter how you slice it, no matter how you cover it, this Obama trip is going well for Obama?
Tara Wall: Well you know, I concede to a point. I th…quite frankly, I thought he butchered his way through that speech today. I mean he bumbled and fumbled and you know, we keep playing this clip of McCain but there was that point when Obama said, ‘Let me be absolutely clear, Israel is a strong friend of Israel's. It will be a strong friend under Israel's under a McCain administration,' I mean if that was not confusing, I think that…he does much better in speeches. This is why he does not do a lot of these press avails. The press complains about the coverage that he allows uh for him so I think it's
Dan Abrams: Let's be clear, the ‘Israel is a close friend of Israel,' the misstatement right? Is that even remotely comparable to wait,
Tara Wall: I'm not suggesting that, but I'm saying
Dan Abrams: But I want to play it. Let me play it because I'm going to play some of what I think you may be talking about
Tara Wall: Yes.
Dan Abrams: Here it is.
<clip 1>
(Confuses leader of Germany; it's Angela Merkel – Feb. 17, 2007)
McCain: I was in a conference in Germany over the weekend and President Putin of Germany gave one of the old Cold War-style speeches uh, as he addressed the conference there.
<clip 2>
(Confuses relationship between Iran and al Qaeda – March 18)
McCain: Well it's common knowledge and it's been reported in the media that al Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran. That's well known. (after conferring with Sen. Lieberman) I'm sorry, the Iranians are training extremists not al Qaeda.
<clip 3>
(Iraq and Pakistan aren't neighbors – July 21)
McCain: We have a lot of work to do and I'm afraid that it's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border.
<caption>
(Troop level at that time: 155,000; Pre-surge troop level: 130,000)
<clip 4>
(Refers to non-existent Czechoslovakia…again and again – October 21))
McCain: The first thing I would do is make sure that we have a missile defense system in place in Czechoslovakia and Poland…
<clip 5>
(Actually, it's the Czech Republic – July 14)
McCain: reducing energy supplies to Czechoslovakia…
<clip 6>
(today McCain Czech's himself)
McCain: They cut the uh, gas supplies, the oil supplies to the Republic of Czechoslovakia…remember excuse me, the Czech Republic. The Czech Republic and Slovakia split years ago and from time to time some of us misstate and say Czechoslovakia when the fact is it's the Czech Republic…
<end clips>
Dan Abrams: Look, the end part here Catherine, the part about the Czech Republic I don't really care about. Alright, I think that's basically irrelevant. Some of the other things I do think are more substantive but the bottom line is the McCain camp is complaining that Obama's getting too much coverage and yet in my view, some of those other more substantive issues have not been covered that much. If Obama made those mistakes, oh my goodness!
Catherine Crier: That's obviously the curse of the press, is we don't cover the substance enough of the time and McCain if you remember during the primary was the darling and carrying forward the reputation that he's had for some time about the maverick, the straight talk express, the reporters always loved him. His primary opponents were terribly frustrated that they felt he was getting the free ride, that he was beloved by the media. Well, now the turn…the worm has turned and the fact is that Obama is the hot story, he's the new story, he's the fresher story and of course now he's over with his tour of Europe and the Middle East – it is the place that's going to get attention and McCain better be careful about trying to bring back focus to him in the United States and the economy because that may not be such a pretty picture.
Dan Abrams: I want to talk to General Clark because General Clark was the subject of an enormous media story a while ago which everyone was linking to Barack Obama. This comment that you made about John McCain and about his military service and what it meant to his credentials to be President. And the media and the right, but it wasn't just the right…the media went crazy over this story, and yet there's this notion out there that somehow Obama's not being covered and the Obama camp had to distance itself from you and spank you and do whatever to make this story die.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well look, that's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.
Dan Abrams: Forget about the substance of that. I'm not asking…I'm asking about the coverage. I mean didn't you feel at that time, that Obama's or your flubs were being overstated in that case?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I think they were taken out of context and then misstated and then shrieks of personal attacks came. That's pretty much the methodology that happens mostly with the right-wing media. I hate to say this, but you know, I went through a presidential campaign, I've watched this for five years now and there is a way in which there's sort of a right-wing three-step. First they take the remark out of context, then they distort the remark, and then they attack personally. So I mean, it's just…it's a methodology and the truth is that John McCain, he may get more attention from the media if he runs a stronger campaign. Running a good campaign and getting media attention is part of the art of politics and right now one side's doing it a whole lot better than the other.
Dan Abrams: Tara, I'm giving you the final word on this.
Tara Wall: You know listen, it's…there's no mistaking that media has a love affair with Barack Obama for many good reasons. He is a more charismatic candidate. But let me just say, it's not just Republicans or the McCain campaign that believes in this off-coverage, this unbalanced coverage – 50% of Americans polled in a poll out today believe that the reporters are more favorable toward Barack Obama…
Dan Abrams: That should help McCain, right?
Tara Wall: so that raises the question
Dan Abrams: That should help McCain, if you can link the media with Barack Obama, that's good news for McCain, right?
Tara Wall: Well, and I just, I think it raises questions on how we are covering these campaigns. There was another report that showed how these campaigns…these two campaigns were being covered. It showed a clear unequal balance between the two. We need to close that up and cover those more substantive issues.
Catherine Crier: Do you remember the lobbyist story broke but the headline was a possible affair with McCain, New York Times? His fundraising went up tremendously. If you link the media and Obama, it helps him with the more conservative elements.
Tara Wall: The same media that are with Obama right now on his trip were not with McCain on his trip to Iraq so you know, look at the distinctions there.
Dan Abrams: And at the heart of the distinction is that McCain challenged Obama to go to Iraq and as a result he did.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well that's news - it's not news for McCain to go to Iraq.
Dan Abrams: Alright. General Wesley Clark, Catherine Crier, Tara Wall, thanks a lot.