Dan Abrams: Tonight, Hillary Clinton compares herself to Rocky, saying she's going the distance as the Democratic Party continues its call to end the fight early. And as they keep fighting, a senior advisor to Senator Clinton admits he's warning super delegates about the Reverend Wright effect? And Attorney General Mukasey suggests, 9/11 could've been prevented if wiretap laws had been different. Another edition of our segment Why America Hates Washington." Vedict starts now.
Hi everyone. Welcome to the show. Democratic Party leaders looking to avoid a prolonged fight continue to use coded terms like 'avoiding a bloodbath,' 'timetables' and 'the will of the people' to subtly nudge Hillary Clinton from the race. Despite that push, Clinton today brought up a legendary boxer as she vowed to fight on.
Hillary Clinton (on tape): Well, could you imagine if Rocky Balboa had gotten halfway up those art museum stairs and said, 'Well, I guess that's about far enough'? (laughter) That's not the way it works. Let me tell you something, when it comes to finishing the fight, Rocky and I have a lot in common.
Dan Abrams: Never mind that Rocky lost in that movie to his opponent Apollo Creed. It sure feels like the ref, Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean, wants to call the fight early, asking the undecided super delegates to make a decision well before the late-August convention.
Howard Dean (on tape): We also have these unpledged delegates that have been part of the rules for 25 years, and about 4- there's about 800 of them - about 470 of them have voted. I'd like the other 330 to say who they're for between now and the first of July.
Dan Abrams: Alright, Chairman Dean may believe he's doing what's best for the Party, but they created these rules and this schedule. And by expediting the race, he's also basically ensuring that Hillary Clinton will have no chance. She will almost certainly be down in both popular vote and delegates at the end of the primaries. She will have to hope to make a momentum argument to the super delegates or hope for an Obama slip-up. Time is her greatest ally, and it sure seems like the leaders in the Party don't want to give that to her.
Joining me now, Hillary, Hillary Clinton supporter General Wesley Clark, Editor in Chief of Salon.com Joan Walsh and syndicated columnist and former Reagan speechwriter Tony Blankly. Thanks to all of you for coming on. Appreciate it.
Alright, Joan, does it not seem to you that the, the leading Democrats are all using coded ter- 'It's all going to be okay,' 'It's all going to work itself out,' which basically means Obama's going to win and we'll be able to get rid of Hillary Clinton
Joan Walsh: I think that's a lot of it, but look, I don't really have a problem with what Dean is trying to do. I think it's really problematic when people, even like Pat Leahy, suggest she's got to get out now before all the votes have been cast and counted. When people start, like Dean or Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi, start to suggest, 'Well, maybe July first is a deadline,' you know, they can say whatever they want. It's interesting. We'd like to know. It gives all of us- we have a deadline. We can report on it. But the fact is, it's not binding. The d- the super delegates can come out. They might say what they want to do. They might not. Dean can't force them.
Dan Abrams: Right.
Joan Walsh: And if they say they support Obama, Dean can't force them to stick with it-
Dan Abrams: But-
Joan Walsh: -when they get to Denver in August.
Dan Abrams: But they can't force them, Wes, but they can have an impact on the super delegates, meaning this is all a fight for these super delegates. And if you've got the Party leaders, even Harry Reid, and I describe this as coded language, he says, "This'll be over long before the convention. Does it mean June 5 or two weeks from now? I don't know. But this will all be just fine." I mean, can you interpret that as anything other than, 'It will be fine. Obama will be our candidate, and this'll be over'?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely. That's not what he's saying. I think Harry Reid and Nancy have both said let the process play itself out. But they have a leadership responsibility to the Party faithful, and that is to reassure them this is going to be okay. A lot of Democrats are nervous. I started getting calls right after the- during the South Carolina Primary, right after New Hampshire from, from people in New York saying, "Oh, this is so terrible. They're, they're fighting with each other. Oh, we got-" I said, "Look, are you Democrat?" They said, "Well, certainly." I said, "Do you believe in elections?" They said, "Of course." Well then, you don't want to turn off an election.
Joan Walsh: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let the people have a voice. What a wonderful thing this is for people on North Carolina and Indiana and states that traditionally
Dan Abrams: A-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -don't have a voice.
Dan Abrams: And-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let it go.
Dan Abrams: And look, and Tony, no one is taking the position officially that Hillary Clinton should get out now. You got Pat Leahy saying it, but you've got no sort of so-called objective observers out there. You don't have Barack Obama saying it. You don't have his campaign officially saying it. But come on, am I wrong in saying that there's a wink and a nod here when Harry Reid (laughs) and, and-
Tony Blankly: Well-
Dan Abrams: -and Howard Dean and these other people are saying, 'Oh you know, we'll be able to fix this pretty soon. Don't worry.'
Tony Blankly: Yeah, I mean, it's more than a wink and a nod. The-there's no nominee. You've got the official Obama people like Leahy who are trying to drive her out and, and you've got the unofficial people who are suffering from Clinton exhaustion who, who I think are doing that. But she has every right to stay in the race until the opponent has a majority of the delegates, and Obama's not going to have to majority of the delegates. He's going to have to need super delegates-
Dan Abrams: That's right.
Tony Blankly: -to win. And, and now-
Joan Walsh: Right.
Tony Blankly: -I don't blame the Obama people for trying to suppress her vote. If they can succeed-
Dan Abrams: (laughs)
Tony Blankly: -in get- in have her losing votes, then-
Dan Abrams: Look-
Tony Blankly: -then they win.
Dan Abrams: But, but see, my problem is not, Joan, with the intellectually honest ones like, like Pat Leahy, who's saying for example-
Joan Walsh: Right.
Dan Abrams: -'You know what? Get out.' Okay, fine. That's Pat Leahy's opinion. People can judge him. My problem is with the Democratic Party establishment. I mean here's Nancy Pelosi. She's backed off of a previous comment she made, which certainly sounded anti-Clinton, and here's what she's saying today:
Nancy Pelosi (on tape): I believe that the elections must run their course, that the people's voices must be heard and that the super delegates voting their conscience but paying attention to the will of the people will come to resolution long before July.
Dan Abrams: Joan, am I being too much of a lawyer when I look at, when I look at 'the will if the people' but paying attention to the will of the people when you know that Hillary Clinton has almost no chance to come away with a popular vote victory. It's possible, super long-shot, but almost no chance and that her only real-
Joan Walsh: But-
Dan Abrams: -hope is with the super delegates. Isn't this effectively Pelosi, and I add her now to the group that I talked about before, with a wink and a nod saying Clinton's done?
Joan Walsh: But actually, as you noted, Dan, this is a significant backing off from earlier statements where she didn't even nod to their conscience. She just said they should follow the will of the people.
Dan Abrams: Hm.
Joan Walsh: And she's getting pushed back and, you know, hammered by some Clinton donors and supporters who said 'That's not right,' and 'That's not fair.' So, she's backing away from that. They do have a problem. I do think that if there's a perception that the super delegates o-overturn a, a decisive popular vote lead, a decisive pledged delegate lead, it's a bloodbath.
Dan Abrams: Mm.
Joan Walsh: On the other hand, they're within, they're within one percent of each other-
Dan Abrams: Yeah, but the, General-
Joan Walsh: -in the popular vote.
Dan Abrams: -you, you guys-
Joan Walsh: I mean that's-
Dan Abrams: You guys need (whispers) time. I mean, t- I mean, le-let's assume this, you know, when this ends in, in early June, Hillary Clinton's best hope is to say, 'You know what? We've got momentum.' And it's going to take some time to convince people, and if everyone's saying let's cut it off June 15th or July 1st or whatever the date is sometime before the convention, that's bad news for Hillary Clinton.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It depends. I mean, a lot of it depends on what happens in Pennsylvania and on the other states. It depends on how the candidates' respective strengths are displayed. And you know, this is about keeping the party together as we go through the process. We're in uncharted waters. This hasn't happened to the Democratic Party before. Lots of people are nervous. They're concerned. There's several captains with their-
Dan Abrams: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -hands on wheel trying to-
Joan Walsh: Oh-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -steer it, but also-
Joan Walsh: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -trying to let the people's will be heard. And so, I think we're going to keep this together. I think we're going to emerge a strong Party from it, and I think we're going to have a great candidate-
Dan Abrams: G-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to challenge John McCain.
Dan Abrams: T- Tony, just real quick-
Tony Blankly: Yeah, I mean both-
Dan Abrams: Bottom line is there's no way that, that time is anything but an ally to Hillary Clinton. Right?
Tony Blankly: Oh of course, she ha- right now, she, she doesn't have a majority. She's got to hang on long enough and hope that Obama melts in some way, and if he does then she's there to pick up the pieces. If he doesn't then he's going to get the nomination. But we've had this before. In '80, the Democrats, Ted Kennedy took it to the convention. In '76, my candidate, Reagan, took it to the convention against the incumbent, Ford. So we've- we haven't seen it in the last 25 years, but in, in my memory (laughs) at least, we've seen it a couple of times.
Dan Abrams: Alright, let me, let me move on. Time now for Teflon John. While most of the media focus only on Clinton and Obama and continue to give John McCain pretty much a free ride, we're keeping an eye on McCain. Tonight, new controversy surrounding this comment from McCain in January.
(on tape)
Questioner: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years.
John McCain: Maybe 100.
Questioner: Is that-
John McCain: How, how long-
Questioner: Is that, is that-
John McCain: We've been in, we've been in South Korea. We've been in Japan for 60 years. We've been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That'd be fine with me-
Questioner: So, that's your policy?
John McCain: -as long as American, as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed.
(and tape)
Dan Abrams: Now, since then Obama and Clinton have blasted McCain. Suddenly, McCain's switching to offense saying this signals that Obama doesn't understand foreign policy. It's true, McCain never said it would be a 100 year war, but he's still talking about keeping troops in Iraq for 100 Years. And he's been flipping and flopping on whether it's a fair comparison-
Tony Blankly: Wha-
Dan Abrams: -to South Korea. Again, if it'd been Obama or Clinton, the media would have been all over them. Do you agree with me, Wes?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I agree that-
Tony Blankly: N-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -look, this shows John McCain doesn't understand the region. This region is allergic to the presence of foreign troops, especially troops from Western countries. So, the idea of staying 100 years, even if there's no fighting, it's going to destabilize our relationships in the region. It shows John McCain-
Tony Blankly: Let-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -doesn't have the-
Tony Blankly: Yeah, look, look-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -expertise that he claims to have in the region.
Tony Blankly: Lo-
Dan Abrams: Go ahead, Tony.
Tony Blankly: Look, G-G-General McPeak, who is Obama's senior military advisor himself a few years ago said he hopes we're there for 100 years. It'll mean we're successful. So, you know, I don't know whether General Clark disagrees with General McPeak. Apparently he does.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I do.
Tony Blankly: And maybe two, maybe two retired-
Dan Abrams: But what-
Tony Blankly: Generals can disagree.
Dan Abrams: Yeah, but what about the media coverage, Tony.
Tony Blankly: But, but, but to suggest, but to suggest that, that Senator McCain is off-base when Obama's own senior military advisor or- said the statement three or four-
Dan Abrams: But-
Tony Blankly: - -years ago,
Dan Abrams: But look, the point, no-
Tony Blankly: -I think is a little-
Dan Abrams: But here, but here's my point, Tony. My point is about-
Tony Blankly: -full of it.
Dan Abrams: -about the way (laughs) that the media covers this. The bottom line is if, if we had seen something like this from Obama or Clinton talking about 100 years, again, whether you agree with it or, or you don't-
Tony Blankly: Well, look-
Dan Abrams: -agree with it-
Tony Blankly: If I were a Democrat, I'd repeat that message a zillion times, because it's a slogan that's not fair.
Dan Abrams: (laughs)
Tony Blankly: But, but it's, it's a good cheap shot. You know, it's like Al Gore and the internet. You know the other side always takes a good cheap shot.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Tony, it's very fair. It's very fair.
Joan Walsh: It's much more fair. It's much more fair.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: When John McCain clarified and said, "Well, I don't mean a war. I just mean to have troops there, he's showing he doesn't understand the region. Look, in South Korea there really is a threat. There's a million troops North of the border. They could come down, and we need a deterrent.
Tony Blankly: Well, let, let- well, let me ask you, General.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There's no threat of invasion-
Tony Blankly: We, we have, we've had troops in-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -by any country in the region.
Dan Abrams: But also, but Tony, how do you deal-
Tony Blankly: But we, we've had, General, we've had troops in, in Kuwait for what 16 years now.
Dan Abrams: But, Tony, how do you-
Tony Blankly: So we- and Bosnia. So we need to pull our troops out of there?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We've had them there in a very specialized fashion.
Dan Abrams: Hang on one second.
Joan Walsh: That's a very different thing.
Dan Abrams: Hang on one second. I want to play this piece of sound. This is from McCain on Charlie Rose. Remember in that sound bite we just heard, he said that it's comparable to South Korea in terms of the way that the troops are there. Here he is on The Charlie Rose Show:
(on tape)
Charlie Rose: Do you think that this Korea, South Korea is an analogy where Iraq might be, not in terms of their economic success, but in terms of an American presence over the next say 20, 25 years that we will have-
John McCain: I don't.
Charlie Rose: -a significant amount of troops there-
John McCain: I don't think so. I think-
Charlie Rose: -even if there are no casualties?
John McCain: No.
(end tape)
Dan Abrams: I mean, Joan, I mean, the flipping and the flopping on this is just, you know, i-it seems that it's constant, and the media just doesn't pick up on it.
Joan Walsh: It is constant, and he should- he gets a lot of credibility for his war hero status. But he is not being grilled on what he really thinks is going to happen long run, and I think it's going to damage him in the long run. I think he, he, you know, he brought it up in such a glib way, '50 year, 100 years, whatever.' and Wes is right, it really represents a lack of understanding of what-
Tony Blankly: Oh-
Joan Walsh: -a provocation those troops-
Dan Abrams: Sorry-
Joan Walsh: -in the region.
Tony Blankly: (inaudible)
Dan Abrams: Tony, Tony, Tony, the final 15 seconds.
Tony Blankly: Yeah, I mean, I would ask G-General Clark, what about the troops that we have in, in Kuwait for 15 years and Bosnia for, for, since 90-what-
Dan Abrams: Yeah, right.
Tony Blankly: -7 or whenever it is?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Bosnia's different.
Tony Blankly: We keep, we keep troops all over the world for a lot of-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Kuwait's there because there was a threat in Iraq, and we've pull out troops out of-
Dan Abrams: Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -Saudi Arabia.
Dan Abrams: The bot-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We need to come out of this region.
Dan Abrams: The bot-, the bot-
Tony Blankly: Well-
Dan Abrams: The bottom line though is that, that, that when it comes to how this story is covered, whether you agree or disagree, the bottom line is McCain tends to get a free pass on this. It's why we call this segment 'Teflon John'.
General Clark and Tony Blankly, thank you very much. Good to see you again.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Dan.
Tony Blankly: Thank you.