Joe Scarborough: Hey, welcome back to Morning Joe. Great to have you with us. A beautiful shot-
Mika Brzezinski: Mmm.
Joe Scarborough: -of the Rockefeller Plaza. Right now though, let's bring in General Wesley Clark. He's an MSNBC analyst and also author of A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor, and Country. General Wesley Clark, thank you for being with us.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Joe.
Joe Scarborough: Yesterday, General, of course The New York Times 'Week in Review' talking about the five-year anniversary. Five years is upon us. Tell us, General, five years later. W-what position has the war in Iraq put America in?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, Iran is the big winner. The United States military's done very well. We've taken a heavy beating over there, and the military's awfully tired. L-lot of the expected benefits of the invasion didn't come through. We didn't spark democratic change throughout the region, and Al Qaeda used us in Iraq as a recruiting tool. And in fact, the situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated. So, it's been a really tough five years, and now we're faced with the prospect of what to do. John McCain was over talking about if we make a pullout, maybe the Al Qaeda will take credit for it and say they ran us out of Iraq. But that's not an adequate reason to stay there indefinitely. The Armed Forces can't do that, and really it, we've given the Iraqis an opportunity. They've got to take it.
Joe Scarborough: Yeah, they certainly do, General, but it's not realistic to say we're going to get out of Iraq in a year, year and a half. Is it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't think, I don't think you can put a definite timeline on it. I think that what you have to do is have a greater effort strategically in the region with diplomacy, with regional strategic understandings. I think you've got to put greater political effort in, inside Iraq, greater economic development effort, take advantage of the security. But I think the key incentive for the Iraqis is the understanding that the United States is departing. It should be the pressure of the U.S. departure which causes the Iraqis to come together, resolve their internal political contradictions and, and get on with taking care of their own people and forming a government.
Joe Scarborough: A-agreed, General, 100% with you. My, my question though is whether it's responsible for anybody to say we can be out in the next year or two. That's not responsible. Is it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I haven't- Well, the candidate I'm supporting, Hillary Clinton, doesn't say that.
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: She says she's going to start a withdrawal within 60 days with a brigade or two.
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that's a responsible position. I think then you've got to work the diplomacy and the politics. You've got to work the region. You've got to look at Afghanistan. You've got to go after Al Qaeda more diligently there.
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There are a lot of different things that have to happen. This is, this is a, a very diverse set of strategic actions that are going to be required to maintain our position as we-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -pull out of Iraq.
Joe Scarborough: Okay.
Mika Brzezinski: I just question though-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: M-kay.
Mika Brzezinski: -because starting withdrawal, I mean, ultimately to some could really mean nothing. I mean, you could start a withdrawal, and you could stop it, and you could then regroup.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.
Mika Brzezinski: The bottom line is when you, given what's happening on the ground there and given, you could argue whether or not we should've gone in there and what we've done to the region 'til the day is long, the bottom line is we're there. And the list that you've just sort of went over in terms of the status of what's happening on the ground there, this is going to take years if we're ever going to get out. I mean, isn't that the bottom line, and don't both Democratic candidates sort of need to come to terms with that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the real bottom line is that it's going to take a different approach, not only to Iraq, but to the region. The problem the Bush administration had, has had from the beginning is it's wanted to use the military hammer, and it's focused attention on the military. That's a great move for domestic politics. Everyone supports our troops. As long as you make it look like a war and it's about whether you're for the troops or against the troops, you can pretty well beat down your domestic opposition. On the other hand, this is not strictly speaking just a military conflict. Dave Petraeus, like all the other Generals, has said, said you can't win this just with military force, and we've got to look beyond Iraq. We've got to look at the region. We've got Al Qaeda. We've got Iran. We've got nuclear pretensions.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We've got concerns with Syria and Lebanon. We've got Israel and Hamas. We've got Gaza. There are a lot of issues that have to be worked simultaneously. So, part of the effort of the next administration, if it's Democratic administration, is to raise our sights off of an exclusive focus on the military and recognize the United States' broader interests and responsibilities in the region.
Joe Scarborough: Gen-General, grade General Petraeus if you will. It certainly looks, if you look at the New York Times op-chart from last week, if you talk to a lot of people that have been going to Iraq over the past five years, that it suggests that maybe General Petraeus has helped turn the tide a bit. How would you grade his efforts.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I give him, I'd give him an A+. He's done a great job on the ground. He is working very hard to improve security, and yet he's keeping his, he's keeping his understanding of the big picture and for us and for, for his own troops. They know they can't win this by knocking off bad guys. You've got to change people's minds. I think the work the United States military's doing now is good. But we also have to understand that this work has been helped by other Sunni powers in the region-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -who recognize the weakness of the United States position. They've put their efforts into encouraging the Sunnis to cooperate-
Joe Scarborough: Wha-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -with the Americans instead of-
Joe Scarborough: What-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -fighting them.
Joe Scarborough: What Sunni, what Sunni countries specifically are you talking about?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I think the Saudis, I think the Jordanians - they're very concerned about Iran's encroachment on Iraq. And of course, the Iranians also have worked to dampen violence. They want to sort out the issues a different way. I think the Iranians kind of like it that you've got the Badr Brigades plus the Mahdi Army there. They can play one off against the other. They've put a lot of people in, and according to the latest information that's been released publicly, the Iranians are still training, still providing equipment and munitions that are arming and, and supporting these militias that are the Shiite militias that could conceivably be used against our own troops or against the sunnis when the time comes.
Joe Scarborough: But, but, but right now you've got the Sunni Awakening, close to 100,000 Sunnis that have decided to, for now, to, to be on our side and turn against Al Qaeda, and you've got Al Sadr maintaining a, another six-month truce. How long can that last?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It really depends on how effectively we navigate, we the United States, navigate Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the other issues in the region. We've got to get a balance in place. The, the Saudis and the Jordanians do not want the Iranians to seize control in Iraq. (chuckles) Neither does Muqtada Al Sadr. He's more of a nationalist. The Badr Brigades, Hak- the Hakim family are much more closely historically aligned with Iran. So, how are we going to play this off and encourage them to make the political accommodations without letting one side or the other become desperate enough to resort back into the violence. So, it's a tough balancing act, and it's going to go on for a while.
Joe Scarborough: It is a tough balancing act, General. Right now it seems like General Petraeus and leaders over there are a hell of a lot further along than we were over the past five years. So, let's hope they continue. Hey, thank you, General.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
Joe Scarborough: Greatly appreciate you being here.
Mika Brzezinski: Thank you, General.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's good to be with you.
Joe Scarborough: I, I hope- I know you're going to France and going to Europe. I hope we can talk to you later this week to get your read on what our European allies are saying five years after the war began.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That'd be great, Joe.
Joe Scarborough: Alright. Thanks, General. General Wesley Clark, author of A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country.
Mika Brzezinski: Alright.
Joe Scarborough: It's great talking to him.
Mika Brzezinski: Yeah, it is.
Joe Scarborough: I cant w- I can't wait to continue this conversation through the week.