September 18, 2007
transcript by Reg NYC
Tucker Carlson: We begin with Hillary Clinton, the war in Iraq and the lessons our leaders should've learned from that war and the lessons Mrs. Clinton has or has not learned. Here to discuss all of that - Iraq, Mrs. Clinton and the future of both - is a man who recently endorsed Clinton for President, the author of A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor and Courage (sic), retired U.S. Army General Wesley Clark. General, thanks for coming on.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. Good to be with you, Tucker.
Tucker Carlson: What do you make of David Petraeus? Did he tell the truth when he came before Congress?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, he told, certainly told the truth as he sees it. I mean, he's the commander. He's in there. He's in the fight. It's his mission to win the war, and it's also his mission to explain it and, and, and gain support.
Tucker Carlson: Is he up to it? I mean, you, you know, you were a General. You look at him. Is he ever-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure, well, sure-
Tucker Carlson: On both sides-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure, he's a terrific guy.
Tucker Carlson: -people are investing a lot of hope in this man.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He's a terrific guy, but he doesn't have the cards. The cards are diplomatic cards. This is about Iran. So, you can't win the war in Iraq without dealing with Iran. You can't deal with Iran by having a once a, a, a month, two-hour sit down session with them where you accuse them of intervening. 'No kidding? Intervening?' Ha, that's their neighbor. They've got a thousand-mile border. They were invaded. They lost a million people, and we just destroyed their greatest enemy in Saddam Hussein. You better believe they're intervening. They've got an integrated political, military, economic strategy to take Iraq out and off the table as a potential opponent. And, and there we are with a veneer of military force going around knocking people off and arresting people and putting them in detention camps and so forth. I mean, i-i-it, the, the- His- He's doing everything he can do that he's been authorized by the President, but he doesn't have the right support. This is a diplomatic, a regional diplomatic issue. It needs to be addressed by the White House that way.
Tucker Carlson: Well, w-what you just said is scary. It has the ring of truth, and it's also essentially the case that the Bush administration has been making, that Iran, we're fighting this kind of proxy war against Iran in Iraq, and if we leave it'll give them the upper hand. Is that kind of what you just said?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure, but I mean, you, you got to ask yourself: Well, is it a proxy war or what is it? This is a struggle for regional dominance.
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And what we have to do is we have to engage Iran. We're fighting the proxy war in Iraq-
Tucker Carlson: Right,
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -rather than talk to Iran. Even during the worst of the Cold War, we basically talked to the Soviet Union. There's no reason why we can't talk to Iran. We got to bring our allies into it in the region. They've got to know that we're not going behind their backs. That can be done. That can be handled, but this administration seems more willing to risk people, young men and women's lives by sending them into combat than it's willing to risk it's own reputation by talking to our, our adversaries.
Tucker Carlson: That, that may be true, but, but the Democratic candidates almost to a person - maybe Joe Biden not included - are saying, 'We got to get combat troops out now.' I mean, sooner rather than later. Yesterday-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, Hillary's not saying that.
Tucker Carlson: It depends who she's speaking before.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I, I, I've-
Tucker Carlson: She says time and again-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Listen-
Tucker Calrson: -in her speeches
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Listen very carefully. We've talked about it. Yes, we need to begin a withdrawal. If it were up to me-
Tucker Carlson: "If he won't end the war, I will." That's what she says.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let me tell you something. I'd pull two brigades out right now. You know why? Because the Iraq politicians are using our troops there.
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And they're using them to stall.
Tucker Carlson: But if we were to bring all of our combat troops out within the next year and a half, which is what I hear her saying, at least in some contexts, what, what would that mean for Iran.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It depends on what we do diplomatically. This administration won't do anything diplomatically. It can't, partly because it doesn't want to, partly because it has no credibility in the region. You know, before they went into Iraq, the big talk was, 'Well, we're going to go into Iraq. Then we're going to take down Syria. We're going to clear up Lebanon. We'll be back to deal with Iran. Seven countries, five years.' That was the talk all over this town, and the Iranians knew it, and they made sure (chuckles) that we weren't going to succeed. So, I mean the, the Explosively Formed Penetrators, the EFP's-
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that are there and the improvised explosive devices - that's the tip of the iceberg. What far more significant is the maybe one million Iraqis who fled to Iran, who live there, who were given shelter there, who have some conversational sympathy for Iran. It's Sistani. It's the whole orientation of the South. Now, the South in Iran- Iraq right now is struggling. They're fighting it out militia against militia, but I-Iran's on all sides of that. They're-
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -arming everybody. They're looking to see who's going to stand up and win.
Tucker Carlson: See, I never hear Demo- I'm, I'm rapt. I'm listening with rapt attention, because what you're saying sounds right and it's frightening.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It is right.
Tucker Carlson: I never hear- It sounds right, I nev- but I never hear Democrats say that. I mean the implication-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I've been, I've been arguing now for four years-
Tucker Carlson: Then why don't the candidates say that? Their implications is-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that we need a, a dialog with Iran.
Tucker Carlson: Okay, but they leave the impression - I listen very- for a living I listen - they leave the impression about we pull out all our combat troops, somehow the countries in the region - that's as specific as they get - will somehow reach some accord and-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well that, that
Tucker Carlson: -bring stability. I mean-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-I've heard a lot of people say things like six months withdrawal and so forth. That, that's not possible. What we've got to do is start the withdrawal. We have got to have a diplomatic offensive in the region. We've got to try to structure what comes next. You've got to have some blandishments. You've got to have some threats. You've got to deal with the Iranian nuclear challenge that's coming up on us. And, and then, then we'll see what the withdrawal timetable looks like.
Tucker Carlson: W-what do you make of the attacks by some on the left on General Petraeus? MoveOn-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it's really unfortunate. I really-
Tucker Carlson: Hil-Hillary Clinton said that she had to use willing suspension of disbelief as she listened to him.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, but I don't consider that, that's not an attack on his character. She just sees a different set of facts. But the MoveOn ad, I think it was a big mistake, because we shouldn't be talking about the General. What we should be talking about is the situation and the strategy. What I've been advocating to Democrats for the last three years is: Don't talk troops and tactics. The problem in Iraq is not about troops. It's not going to be resolved by whether there's another 5,000 or 10,000 troops there or not. And it's not about what tactics they use - not a surge, not outpost, not patrols. That's not what it's about. It's about the region. It's about Iran's struggle for dominance. You must critique this administration on its failure to have real strategy and policies in the region that work. I, I've been through the region a number of times. I talked to the leaders in all of the friendly states in the, in the region. And I say, "Well, so how's the dialogue going with the, with the Americans?" They said, "Dialogue?" Sometimes they go months, they don't hear from the United States, and when they hear, the United States says, 'We want you to do this.' The United States doesn't listen. The United States doesn't build a team. The, the Saudis and other states in the region are, are very concerned about what might happen next.
Tucker Carlson: I bet they are.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The progress in Al Anbar province that President Bush is so proud of-
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, that, that's not progress as a result of the surge. That's the Sunni states in the region putting money-
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: in to the, to the Sunni Sheiks-
Tucker Carlson: To defend themselves
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and tell them, "Get ready."
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "Because when the Americans leave-"
Tucker Carlson: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "-the Iranian-backed Shia force is coming your way. You have got to hold onto a slice of Iraq."
Tucker Carlson: And, and I think you're totally right. General Wesley Clark, thanks for joining us. That was interesting as hell.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
Ticker Carlson: Thank you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Read my book.
Tucker Carlson: I shall read your book. Now you, you've totally convinced me to read your book. Thank you.
(both laugh)