This is Iranian Voices in America. When you're finished listening to the podcast, we'd like to ask you to go to www.stopIranWar.com and sign the petition that General Clark and VoteVets has up there for you.
We'll be speaking today to Iranians living in California. We want to hear their point of view on relations between our countries, on the possibilities of diplomacy and on the possibilities of war. And we want to learn more about Iran and Iranians from the voices of real people. We have with us today Sarah Amir, an environmental engineer working for the California EPA. She's a former candidate for Lieutenant Governor of California on the Green Party ticket. Sarah's been living in America since 1974. Representing our younger Iranian voice is Ali. Ali is in his early 30's. He's a Beverly Hills professional working in sales, and he moved to America with his family just prior to to the 1979 Iranian Revolution. And lastly, we have Mahmoud, a California architect living in America for 29 years. All three maintain close contact with friends and family in Iran and visit frequently.
We began by asking Sarah, Ali and Mahmoud to share with us some things about Iran that Americans might not be aware of.
MS in LA: You know, I found some interesting stats recently that were a little bit surprising to me, that the median age over there is 25.
Sara Amir: Yes. That's correct, because a lot of people were born after the Revolution. A huge population explosion after the Revolution.
MS in LA: The literacy rate is 86% versus 40% in Iraq.
Sara Amir: Yes, and the Islamic Republic has paid a lot of attention to literacy. And ironically, a lot of women go to college and they, they're very educated. You know, you hear about women in Iran that- being oppressed and all that, but at the same time, a lot of women become very independent economically. And a lot of women are working.
MS in LA: I think what happens a lot in Western media is they clump all Islamic nations into one sort of hijab.
Sara Amir:Sara Amir: Exactly.
MS in LA: And we're supposed to think all of the women are, are cowering in the corner in their chador. And I saw a lot of pictures of modern day Tehran and, and it looks like Chicago. (laughs)
Sara Amir: Yeah, with, with the scarf on their head. That's the only difference. And, and these are the pictures that American people don't see. They want to learn, but they, what they see in the media is totally a different picture. And that's why I'm so appreciative that you are doing this, because it's very important that American people in whatever way, they get the truth, they get the picture about Iranians.
MS in LA: Ali?
Ali: My cousin's son is going into the military, and he's at the age where military service is mandatory for men in Iran. And they're very worried that there's going to be a war.
MS in LA: I saw on Wikipedia that Iran has the largest number in the world of troop mobilization available. They have a standing army of about 450,000.
Ali: There's two reasons for that. They're-
MS in LA: Mm hm.
Ali: Like I said, the military is mandatory there. Once you're 17 or 18, you have to serve the military. And the other reason is they were in an 8 year war with Iraq, and so their, their military is pretty tough and very well organized.
MS in LA: What I'm finding here with Iranians, the ones that I know are so very informed politically and so very educated.
Sara Amir: Iranians in Iran are very informed also. They are very much engaged in politics because of their situation. Americans can go by and not be involved in politics during their daily lives. But Iranians, you know, in every step that they take they think about politics. they discuss politics, and they have a lot of access to different TV channels, all kinds of European and Arabic and Indian - all kinds of different media.
MS in LA: So-
Mahmoud: That is very true. In terms of political awareness-
MS in LA: Yes.
Mahmoud: -and what happens all around the world, they're very, very aware of what's happening. You know, and these days, the age of technology and so on, they are exposed to all kind of the latest and the greatest technology- -satellite and e-mails and et cetera, et cetera.
MS in LA: Can you tell us something about your country and Iranians that you think maybe Americans might not be aware of.
Mahmoud: Iran is an old country. And one of the things is that opposite of propaganda, Iran has never attacked any country, has not been involved in aggressive war.
MS in LA: Right.
Mahmoud: There have been a couple of wars that were imposed on them. But they never started any war. You know, and that is, to me that's very important that everybody is talking about that Iran may attack this, Iran may do this-
MS in LA: Mm hm.
Mahmoud: We have to prevent it from being aggressors and you know being terrorists or sponsor of terrorist and things like that. People should know that you know Iran has been a peaceful country.
MS in LA: Ali.
Ali: The people are very pro-America. They're fascinated by the West, especially America- -and like America. And if you, I don't know if, if you recall when 9/11 happened, people in Iran came out in support of America, and they lit candles. Yeah, they did.
MS in LA: Mahmoud?
Mahmoud: And you go there actually you see that the, the people in general like Americans.
MS in LA: Yeah.
Mahmoud: You know, they're not anti-American.
MS in LA: No.
Mahmoud: Although a lot of them may be anti-American policies, but not anti-American.
Sara Amir: My husband is American and we, we went there together about ten years ago to Iran, and you know wherever he went to, people told him that they love Americans. They really do, and this is something that any Americans who travel to Iran, they get that out of Iranian people. But they also make sure that they tell Americans that they don't like their government because of the coup against the democratic government in Iran in 1953 and what happened during the Revolution and helping the Shah's government - all the past history.
So, Iranians love Americans as people, but they don't like their government.
Ali: They are hopeful. I mean, I, I can tell you that even speaking to my cousin. She listens to Voice of America.
MS in LA: Mm hm.
Ali: She, she does listen to the American broadcasts of the news and everything, and that's how they get their news. They are a little scared though. They're scared because the war isn't really going to be the answer. Nothing would make them happier than to get rid of this government in Iran. But I think that there's other ways of doing it, and to go and blow up with nuclear bombs, that's just catastrophic and that- I don't even want to think what the, the repercussions of that would be.
MS in LA: My next question is about President Ahmadinejad. I mean, from what I'm learning is he's not quite as powerful as we seem to think he is in the overall scheme of things.
Mahmoud: That is very true. If you are familiar of the current Iranian system, not necessarily the President has the ultimate power. There are a lot of authority or hierarchy, you know, that he would not be on top. So, he was elected based on, you know, the support of almost middle and lower middle class people. They were supporting based on his promises.
MS in LA: And he didn't deliver?
Mahmoud: I don't think he did, to be honest and that is why, for a while, his popularity was going up. Now it is sliding down.
Sara Amir: When he was elected about two years ago it was because of all the - if you remember all the rhetoric - that President Bush was talking about Axis of Evil, all of that. What happened in Iran, Ahmadinejad was the only voice that was standing up for Persian rights and all that. At that time, President Bush actually helped Ahmadinejad to get elected-
MS in LA: Oh?
Sara Amir: -rather than Hashemi Rashamjani who was the voice of moderation in Iran, so he got elected and he was, in the beginning, he was popular.
MS in LA: So you, you’re saying that he kind of made him into the rock star by, by isolating him as part of the Axis of Evil?
Sara Amir: Exactly. And then when he got elected, he, he got elected because he was talking about all the good things for Iranians, economic situation. And then later on, people got tired of him, because he was making trouble for the country-
MS in LA: Yeah.
Sara Amir: -getting a lot of attention from everywhere - and negative attention. His approval rating is maybe about 20% - REALLY not popular. Iranians don’t like him.
Ali: I’ll tell you, everyone I speak to says they didn’t vote for Ahmadinejad, and how he came to power is a little dubious at best, and they feel that the Supreme Council had, may have had something to do with it. And they... And he’s definitely their mouthpiece. But the majority of the people were very much in support of Khatami and his reformist policy. And I think that the reason Ahmadinejad all of a sudden came into picture is because the Supreme heads, so to speak, wanted to kind of halt that progress towards the West, and, and, and put in one of their own people.
MS in LA: And yet with such a, a young population that’s going to be a difficult task I would think for them.
Ali: Well they’re having a hard time, I mean, before they, they used to really be strict about enforcing the hijab And, and kids couldn’t play music. And now they’re not enforcing hijab. Women are wearing makeup. Young kids are playing western music. Everyone’s got internet access. They take down dish satellites, people put them back up. And it’s very hard for them to, although they try to control the people. And you hear about it every now and then through the media here there’s always demonstrations at the University.
MS in LA: Is Ayotallah Khameini, is he really pretty much the one who is the powerful one then in Iran?
Ali: Khameini, yeah. Yes, he is. He’s pretty much the S- they call him the Supreme-
MS in LA: Supreme Religious Leader.
Ali: Yeah, the Supreme Religious Leader. So, he has the power to veto. Even if something goes into law and he doesn’t agree with it, he can repeal it.
MS in LA: So over Ahmadinejad, what, what he might say?
Ali: Oh, he definitely is over Ahmadinejad.
MS in LA: Mm hm. He’s got that ‘expanded executive power’ we hear so much about.
Ali: Exactly.
MS in LA: Okay.
Ali: Exactly.
Sara Amir: Ayatollah Khameini has a LOT of power. He’s the one who has the ultimate power in Iran, and he is, you know, he's radical Islamic also. But he understands the politics. Ahmadinejad is more like a cowboy - like Bush. But Khameini understands politics, understands that if he wants, his government wants to survive, they have to deal with the neighbors, they have to deal with the other countries.
MS in LA: Oh, that's interesting.
Sara Amir: They can’t just say that Israel should be wiped out of the earth.
MS in LA: I wanted to talk to you briefly about if you think there’s any sign of progress here with Ahmadinejad just paying his first official visit to Saudi Arabia to see King Abdullah? They wanted to help ease the sectarian tensions between Sunni and Shia. What’s your opinion on that?
Ali: In most of Gulf states and in Eastern Saudi, there’s a big Shia population. And with what happened in Iraq and the Shia’s coming to power, you know, all the Gulf states - Bahrain is 80% Shia, Saudi Arabia has about 30% Shia population - are worried. And I think that one of the reasons why Ahmadinejad went there, is because the Saudis now are openly saying that they will support the Sunnis, and just to go to ease the tension.
Sara Amir: I grew up in Iran. I went to University, undergrad, in Iran, and I never heard of this, the issues of Sunni and Shia. And as a, as a matter of fact my sister was married to a Sunni, but I never knew about it. And later on when I was here, then I found out “Oh, as a matter of fact, He was Sunni!” So, it wasn’t a big issue. And then in Iraq, they made it an issue in Iraq.
MS in LA: Exactly.
Sara Amir: And now, all the issues that they’re bringing up about the neighbors of Iran and Sunni and Shia-
Mahmoud: And you can see that the Iranian influence has increased recently between other countries, neighboring countries - like Shias, like in Lebanon, like Palestine, and so on. When you look at these Shia and Sunnis, you, you can see a lot of sign of that, even in Iran, that they are trying to divide and conquer, you know. And that’s what happened in Iraq, but now it’s out, out of their control. You know, Shia and Sunnis are killing each other, and if America is coming out, would get worse. If they stay, it’s getting worse. You know, what to do? They didn’t have to go there to begin with, but now that they’re there, what can they do? How they can stop this killing? And I think the only way is just to bring the neighboring countries, the players, together at the table, let them talk, let them solve, let them use their influence. But very soon, if that continues, every family that lose a member, you know, they get the game.
MS in LA: Yes.
Mahmoud: And they, they don’t care that the suicide bombers are getting more and more, because they have lost one of their family member.
MS in LA: Yeah.
Mahmoud: When you break a door, kick it in you know, you have lost that family that lived in that house. You had them. So that’s the difference.
MS in LA: Yeah.
Mahmoud: You know, we should start talking. We should start being less aggressive and listen more and and see then what happens.
MS in LA: So now we’ve got the drumbeat toward possible attack. What are you hearing form the country, from your people that you know?
Sara Amir: I was talking with my sister yesterday, and she asked me, you know, “What is going on, are we going to be attacked?” And I said, "You know what? We hear all kinds of things, and there is a possibility." She said that they were really nervous there. They didn’t know what to do. And, you know, I said, "You know, we are very nervous here too, and we don’t know what's going to happen. But there is a big possibility that there’s going to be attack on the nuclear power area like different targeted area." But, you know, in terms of attacking the cities and things like that, don’t you think this is the dumbest idea that any, any government would have? I mean, how could they even think that by attacking Iran they would gain something? The attack on Iraq and removing Saddam and then attacking Afghanistan, removing the Taliban actually helped Iran a lot. It made Iran a power, a really powerful country-
MS in LA: In the region.
Sara Amir: -in the region. And Americans did that for Iran!
MS in LA: Yeah.
Sara Amir: Iran couldn’t have done it for itself! (exasperated chuckle)
MS in LA: Right. Yeah.
Sara Amir: So now, now they understand what they’ve done. So, now they want to attack Iran and get the power out. Attacking Iran is the dumbest idea that any government could have. Attacking Iraq was stupid, this is much more stupid than anything else.
MS in LA: (laughs) So, are the people, Mahmoud, the people that you know in Iran, your family and, and friends, are they frightened of a possible war? Are they listening to what’s going on in our press?
Mahmoud: They say, ‘No, it’s very remote. But if that happens, probably they would hit some, some installations, you know, not the, the cities or the populated areas. So we are safe.' And I don’t think that would be beneficial to America or the Western world, because you know as soon as any attack happens against Iran, you know, they have lost Iranian population.
MS in LA: You say they love Americans there, and I’ve heard this a lot, and I hear there’s a lot of pro-Western sentiment. I know it’s a really young population. Our standing, by what we do right now vis a vis your country, our standing could be lost. Is that what you’re saying?
Mahmoud: Sure. They will be getting united, because Iranians are very patriotic. They will be united. That’s what happened during the Iran/ Iraq war. It may happen the same thing again. You know, if anybody raise his voice or makes any opposition, they will blame it on the current situation and the enemy and so on, that 'We have to get united. Let’s get all in one front against the big enemy.'
Sara Amir: Don’t you think if America is attacked, then everyone is going to go behind President Bush? It’s the same thing for Iran. If Iran is attacked, everyone is going to support their president.
Ali: Well the drumbeat to war is definitely very concerning, and very, it is scary, because of two things. Obviously because I, I, there's people that I know there and I, I would hate to see Iran being bombed and innocent people dying.
MS in LA: Yes.
Ali: I think we’ve seen enough of that and also because there seems to be a lot of coverage given to Ahmadinejad-
MS in LA: Yes.
Ali: -and not enough coverage given to what the people in Iran are feeling.
MS in LA: Which is exactly why we’re talking to you today. I’m wondering, in Iran, what their perception is. Do they believe that Ahmadinejad and, and that the government is strictly using nuclear energy, or if they are developing nuclear weapons?
Mahmoud: There are mixed opinions, but to me, it doesn’t make any difference. You know, I believe that number one, nobody should have the nuclear weapon to begin with. I think last week that was in LA Times, it was saying America started a new line of hydrogen bomb. You know, what are we preparing ourselves for? If terrorists attack America, we will attack what with a hydrogen bomb? So we don’t need it. And nobody need it. I would say Iran has a right to develop nuclear energy, nuclear technology just for energy. When you read and you see on, on the paper and the news media, they say, 'Why does Iran need nuclear energy, when they have so much oil?'
But this oil is going to dry up. So I would say, they have to monitor. They have to put some precautionary measure to prevent Iran from having nuclear weapon. But they have to help them, again with a good monitoring system, let them have nuclear technology for producing energy. All the, the agreements say that, that you know all the countries can have access to nuclear technology. Iran has signed the agreement but-
MS in LA: India and Pakistan well both of them-
Mahmoud: -and both of them have not signed. Iran has signed. So, by that law, you know, if you have signed, the world body has to help them even to produce nuclear technology.
Ali: I don't think that they feel there’s a need for it. I think nuclear energy is something that they would like to have. And at the same token do I believe what Ahmadinejad says? No.
MS in LA: Yeah, it's hard to believe him.
Ali: You know, who knows? I mean, who, I, do I think it‘s you know two years or do I think- Do I think he has intentions of having nuclear weapons? Absolutely. How close they are? I couldn’t even begin to tell you.
MS in LA: You know in 1953 with the coup-
Ali: Right.
MS in LA: -that was a four day coup of Mossadeq- Is that how you say it?
Ali: Right. Mossadeq. Yeah.
MS in LA: It cost a million dollars-
Ali: Right.
MS in LA: -initially-
Ali: Right.
MS in LA: -from the CIA. The US and the Brits went in and overthrew the regime. And we put one condition on the Brits to join into this regime change effort. And we wanted them to put in writing, to the satisfaction of the State Department, their intent, and this is a quote, “to reach an early oil settlement with a successor Iranian government in a spirit of goodwill and equity." It was the only condition, and that’s 1953. That coup took four days and a million dollars from the CIA.
Sara Amir: (sighs) It was a very, very sad coup. It was a very sad coup, because Iran had a democratic government and Mohammed Mossateq, he was an educated man. He knew what he was he was doing and he was very popular. But what they did, they brought him down and they got the oil, and- You know, during the Shah the oil was getting out of Iran into the oil companies hands, and a lot of people benefited, profited from, from the deal, from the coup. And this is the same thing. It’s about oil. It’s about, you know, control of resources
Mahmoud: It’s the Gulf. You know, Iran is in a very, very strategic location, and now it’s surrounded by a lot of countries that are quite pro-America, or America as it’s trying to be. So it’s basically surrounded, and Iran is the only (laughs) one that has very important strategic location next to the Gulf, that all these oils are running through-
MS in LA: With Hormuz, yeah.
Mahmoud: So yeah, it is critical.
Ali: As oil prices have gone up, Iran has made a lot of money, just like the oil companies here made billions of dollars. So did Iran. So, Iran is very cash rich as is Russia and Venezuela. So they have all this money and they’re buying arms. And they're buying arms from Russia and they’re buying arms from China, and they’re strengthening their position.
MS in LA: Yeah.
Mahmoud: And the other thing is that very soon, this oil will dry up. And the money for those oil will dry up, and probably some of the (laughs) pushing and shoving will stop too, you know, because of that oil. The oil money, you know, which is equally important, you know, that all the exchange be in US currency. And Iranian is threatening that they will sell the oil now with Euro, and that is something that American government cannot accept at any cost.
MS in LA: The United States has just decided to attend the conference in Baghdad that will include Syria and Iran, and Condoleeza Rice said that she is going to be meeting with the Foreign Ministers of Syria and Iran in April. Poss-
Sara Amir: Which is, which is really good. This is what they should’ve done right after the Iraqi situation. They should have met with Iran and discussed the issues. Iran was ready to help the United States. They offered, and they helped them actually with Afghanistan. They helped them out with, against the Taliban.
MS in LA: Mm hm.
Sara Amir: But you know, the United States decided to refuse any help from Iran, because they thought that they, they had a lot of power at that time. And it’s a very, very wise idea to negotiate with Iran. I, I don’t understand the logic behind not negotiating. During the time of the Cold War we were negotiating with the Soviet Union!
MS in LA: And yeah. It seemed to work. (laughs)
Sara Amir: And China! And it seemed to work. Why not with Iran?
Mahmoud: The direct talk between the, the two countries, you know, without any preconditions and terms and anything - just sit down and talk and try to see if there is any solution. And if that happens, you know, I’m sure that both parties - both American and Iranian - would benefit from this situation and of the outcome. But if they just go and one say, ‘Death to Iran’ and the other one say, ‘Death to America,’ nothing will be solved. I think there is a willingness, and recently more, that the two governments start talking. Both sides should stop all this propaganda, He Said/ She Said type of thing, and just get to the point, you know, how we can solve the differences.
MS in LA: Your ideas are, are are very aligned with General Wesley Clark actually who, oddly enough, being a lifetime military man, believes that-
Mahmoud: Yes.
MS in LA: -war of any kind is a last, last resort.
Mahmoud: Yes.
MS in LA: And that’s why he’s pushing right now diplomacy, and, and talking, how important high level negotiations and diplomacy would be between the whole region. So let’s hope that that’s the direction we’re going to go in.
MS in LA: Ali, what are you hearing from the students in Iran? we don’t get much coverage over here, are they concerned about a possible war?
Ali: The University students in Iran and the, the youth in Iran are relying on the West and hoping that the West gives them the coverage, instead of- By going to war with Iran, what will happen is, that it just emboldens the Mullahs and Ahmadinejad, and the Supreme heads. But if the, the people have more support from the West, and, and by covering such things, and for the West to cover when there are demonstrations, when the students are arrested, I think that’s what will help, because Iran right now is ready to form revolution from within.
MS in LA: And it sounds from what you’re saying like there’s a lot of hope vested in the West to help bring them through this.
Ali: Right. But not by going to war.
MS in LA: That’s why General Wesley Clark has put up his website, stopiranwar.com . And what he’s trying to do is rally the voices of all American people actually, to sign the petition that goes to the White House, to sign off to your Congress Representatives, to send letters to the editor and just speak out, say how you feel about it, and maybe it will have an impact at least on our Representatives.
Sara Amir: And thank you for what you’re doing. I just want to say that Iranian people are very similar to American people - what they want out of life. They want peace. They want prosperity. They want to have a good life especially the young generation of Iranians. And Iranians are very proud people. And if there is any attack on Iran then, you know, the nationalism comes first Although they hate their own government, but they’re very much nationalist.
MS in LA: In Scott Ritter’s book, which is called Target Iran, he mentioned that any gestures of diplomacy by this particular administration might just be cosmetic. They might just be to abate the critics.
Sara Amir: Hopefully it’s not. Hopefully they’re negotiating genuinely. I, I, I really want to be positive, because the alternative is really sad. I have a lot of family, a lot of friends. I know the people there, and I know how scared they are.